Possibly one of my readers can help me answer this liturgical question. There is a priest in my diocese that helps out at different churches and every time he says Mass on a day where the profession of faith is required he says the Apostles Creed and not the Nicene Creed. Now my understanding is that under the new missal that the Apostles’ Creed may be used during Lent, Easter and at Masses for Children.
Looking at a Zenit’s answer about this is the relevant section.
"19. Loco symboli nicaeno-constantinopolitani, praesertim tempore Quadragesimae et tempore paschali, adhiberi potest symbolum baptismale Ecclesiae Romanae sic dictum Apostolorum" (Missale Romanum, Page 513).
Knowing very little Latin this doesn’t help me much, but they say it could possible be interpreted
The Roman Church’s baptismal creed, the so-called Apostles’ Creed, may be used in place of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, especially in Lent and Eastertide."
Which widely interpreted could mean every Sunday, solemnity, etc.
My main question would be what would be a good reason for this substitution? Every time I have seen this done it greatly confuses those in the pews and people start mumbling their way through the creed since they expect one and try to recite the other and end up saying neither. Now I can see possibly doing this during Lent since this might be similar to suppressing the Gloria as something somewhat penitential. The first Mass I heard this done was on Trinity Sunday and I thought how totally inappropriate it was to not have the Nicene Creed with its great expression of the three persons of the trinity.
27 comments
Well, before I read this post, I was under the impression that the Apostles’ Creed could only be said at Masses for children. The first place I’d check is the GIRM.
I dont know the answer to your question but when I was in the Philippines they recited the Apostles Creed at mass.
There is no good in it. It only serves to dumb down the Faith. No one with have to worry about that pesky ‘consubstantial’ thing. This option will NOT be used in my parish.
All I can think is that the priest is calling attention to himself by changing the mass, which we’ve all seen done. Whenever a priest is interested in calling attention to himself, he’s taking attention away from what should be happening at mass.
I can only imagine the priest has a personal preference, for whatever reason (it’s shorter?) for saying the Apostle’s Creed.
We have a priest who insists on saying “The Lord IS with you” to which the congregation mutters “And also with you” which is dumb, and calls attention to HIM rather than the Lord.
I’ve not heard the Nicene Creed at Mass for a long time. I have actually forgotten the Latin version of it. We use the Apostles Creed all the time, and that too at top speed; I must admit I find that annoying.
Amy– your pastor should meet my pastor. We routinely skip the Gloria during Ordinary Time, because he likes to “save it for special occasions.” Sigh… 🙁
At our wonderful parish in Michigan, we not only SING the GLoria but also the Kyrie. The priest also chanted the gospel during Christmastide. The priest and the parish musician has taken the GIRM and taken out all the frivilous AMERICANIZED additions to the liturgy and put in chants and everything that should be there and we do get this done under 60-70 minutes. The pslams are all of the gregorian motif. None of the rum raisin HAugen-Hass crap that most parishes in USA have.
The people love it! During communion we are doing a chant alleluia verse with cantor using chant verses for communion. This provides very simple but elegant music that befits what is happening at the time i nthe mass. None of the dreaded St Louis Jesuit durge that befits a desert roaming afraid or some Avian Pslam called ON Beagle’s Wings that makes 50something ladies howl in horror because fo the range of music.
We now have a thanksgiving hymn after communon before the final blessing and the Priest recesses amid beautiful organ music. Not some Hee-Haw jamboree song that makes you want to grab a jug of mooonshine as many parishes play at this time of the mass. In fact I do say we probably sing more in the parish liturgy than most parishes but it is where the singing is done. We also chant the response after the gospel. HMMM! anyone out in Bloggvile ever do that! IT lends to the reverance of the gospel.
Come join us for Lent as we will have solemn Vespers with chant!
see parish link
http://www.stpatrickparnell.org/
We have not arrived yet but we are well on our way. Once ou have experiences a mass this way you will wnat to never EVER go back and do the Mcdonalds version that is so prevalent in USA.
Bother Dominic
That’s nothing – at my old Episcopal parish, we once used this monstrosity from New Zealand that contained virtually zero actual statements. It is jokingly referred to as the “My God, you are so big” creed.
As for Trinity Sunday, I think the Athanasian Creed should be used for that, given its namesake’s life-long defense of the doctrine.
The answer to the original question is yes. According to the new GIRM (2003), the option of using the Apostle’s Creed in place of the Nicene Creed has been changed from being only an option at Masses with Children to being an option at any Mass where the Creed is to be said. In addition, it states that this is especially suitable “in Lent and Eastertime.”
I don’t say that I agree with this, merely that this is the current liturgical law. I think this a bit unfortunate since the Apostles’ Creed is a uniquely Latin creed and using it separates us from the Eastern Churches, who always use the Nicene Creed, which is, historically, the only Creed ever sung at Mass in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
As to “taking too much time,” at our Gregorian Schola’s Mass we sing the entire ordinary, including the Creed, as well as chants or hymns at the Entrance, Offertory, Communion, and Recessional; and a sung Repsonsorial Pslam and Alleluia. All other parts of the Mass usually sung are also sung (e.g. Our Father, collects). This Mass is usually over in 55 minutes, sometimes less.
There is a certain beauty and challenge in variety. There can also be confusion. I think there’s a big difference between leaving a little room for the Holy Spirit and dressing up like Barney.
I can’t help but defend the occasional “The Lord IS with you”, because, in fact, those words fill me with joy and prompt me to thank the Lord more fervently for the Mass we have just celebrated. That is far from “calling attention to the priest” rather than God.
Skipping prayers to shorten the Mass misses the point however. If that’s “charity”, then it’s misplaced charity. What could be good about spending less time in worship? That’s sad.
ah, it is what i love about a good debate…..
we love it when the vatican decides in “our” favor and then we’re “troubled” when they don’t…
as for me, i’m just glad that when i wake up in the morning and begin with the serenity prayer that God has yet to once leave me a note on my mirror> I’m taking the day off and you are in charge.
The only cases where we use the Apostles Creed in lieu of the Nicene is when we have a baptism during Mass – about ten or so times a year. Unfortunately that comes at the cost of only having the Gloria occasionally.
The God Fearin Fiddler, people reciting the Apostles’ Creed instead of the Nicene one IS almost the norm in Masses in the Philippines, just like people holding hands at the Our Father andPriests wandering around the Altar at the Homily.
I think the ‘Lord is with you’ is quite good, but what the priest is saying when he says ‘the Lord be with you’ is very much like wishing that God might be more present with us individually and as a whole.Also,While in a sense, God never abandons His children, a sinner is usually said to not have God within him. The priest has no way of knowing this unless he can read the hearts of men, so ‘The Lord is with you’ would be misleading in this sense as we cannot know if the whole congregation are in a state of grace or not.
Margaret – Maybe your pastor could get some ideas from our “choir”. They sing some song that has the would glorify in it, and thats our gloria. Strange, it actually takes longer than saying the Gloria; maybe if I point that out we could go back to the actual prayer. Unfortunately, there are much bigger problems with our Masses that I am trying to deal with right now. Sigh…
In my humble opinion there is NO good excuse to use the Apostle’s Creed at mass. Come on, how much longer is the Nicene Creed… a minute or so? Arrrghhh!
yep, the apostle’s creed is the norm in the Philippines.
Now I’m so confused that i’ve forgotten which is which. Anyway, the long one is beautiful, if that makes a difference. (and i think it does.)
But Patrick, since we JUST received Jesus in the Eucharist, how can He not be with us? (And aren’t those who didn’t receive the Eucharist invited to spiritual Communion?)I can’t see it as presumptuous that the priest then proclaims with confidence that the Lord IS with us.
Every time I’ve been to Mass in Canada, the Apostle’s Creed was done. Can any Canadians confirm whether it is the norm there as well?
Albertus,
The Apostles Creed is the norm at most parishes in Canada – I have no idea why. It gets kind of ‘messy’ (in a humorous way) if there’s a visiting priest who says the Nicene Creed….picture mass scrambling for hymnals or missalettes. 🙂
I don’t know where Jennifer is from, but I’m from Mtl, and I agree that the Apostle’s creed is the norm. Perhaps it’s because we have various priests come in for Sunday Mass, but in our parish we do say the Nicene creed with some frequency (ie, it’s not at all unheard of, and I don’t think there’s any scramble).
Hi, I am from the Toronto, Ontario diocese (we have a great Archbishop!) I spoke with my husband and he said, in Canada, reciting the Apostles Creed was OK’d by the CCCB (Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops) a long while ago.
We have a newer pastor (34yrs old) and at the start of Advent he decided to pray half the year in the Nicene and then pray the Apostles Creed the other half.
Many, many people in our parish had never heard of the Nicene Creed.
Our former pastor allowed all choir books that included the Creeds in them to have all gender specific words scratched out with no replacement word.
There was no Father, Son or He.
New Pastor comes in and smacks a new sticker in each book with the correctly worded Creeds.
YEAH!!
Teresa B.
OK. Learn the Apostles Creed so you can say the Rosary properly. Follow the GIRM and say the Nicene-Constantinopole Creed since the extra wording bashes down all those pesky heresies that always seem to keep coming back. (Spelling may be wrong.)
The priest in my mother’s parish never says either creed at mass, but instead asks the baptismal questions to which the faithful respond “I do.” I grew up with this on Easter, but to have it done every week bothers me. The children never have to learn either creed.
Yes, the Canadian Ordo says that the Apostles Creed is used since it’s easier to learn. Or in more plain language: Canadians are too dumb to learn the Nicene Creed.
I wish our Bishops would stop dumbing things down and give us some Holy Days of Obligation (only Christmas and New Years in Canada now). It’s really sad.
When I need to say something, I wanna say it strongly. Also this is who I am and if you don’t like what you hear, then my advice is to go on to another page. If you don’t appreciate my idea it is your problem, not mine. I am really convinced about what I thinkthat is true. Part of me is really scared and preoccupaid about cash spent on it but the other side couldn’t care less. Unluckily, my husband is not the same. Please, send positive energy, dance around a fire what ever to send the positive vibrations this way and keep things this way. I have the echo in my hears blattering about
soundlabs.info/sitemap2.html>madonna ringtone exploding in my head, and how says he’s going to hate to spend time like this. Unfortunately, this was also true. Michelle and I were going through a not so long duration period of being an happy couple when he asked an inoffensive enough question. Fair enough.
Bye
Yup, Matthew you are right. The CCCB thinks we are too dumb to say the Nicence Creed. It’s common all over Canada to say the Apostle’s Creed, just like we are at a children’s Mass. But that’s no surprise – look what the CCCB has done with Humane Vitae, and the GIRM. Oh, wait, we don’t follow Humane Vitae and we don’t have a GIRM. Thanks to the CCCB!
At our parish (Ohio, USA) we recently switched to the Apostle’s Creed because our pastor says that it is more prayerful, and less doctrinal. (To which I say, what’s wrong with doctrine?)
Comments are closed.