From Fr. Tran at St. Mary’s by the Sea in the Diocese of Orange:
Regarding the Tridentine Mass
at our parish, I
would like to make some clarifications, following the
directives of Bishop Brown in 3 points:
1) “The availability of a priest, in good standing, who
can demonstrate a minimum rubrical and linguistic
Your servant/brother in Christ,
ability to celebrate the extraordinary form”.
For this point we do not have any problems:
Fr. Mackin and I can learn hard to celebrate the
Tridentine Mass with the help of other priests.
2) “The ‘group’ of the faithful (that) exists ‘stably’
needs to be of sufficient number to warrant the
public use of the forma extraordinaria.
Individuals who are not geographically or
intentionally part of a particular parish
community should have recourse to their
proper parish with their request or to the
existing public celebrations that presently are
offered in the Diocese of Orange at Mission
Juan Capistrano and Pope John Paul II Center”.
For this point: I believe that we have a
sufficient number of parishioners to warrant the
public use of the Tridentine Mass. Furthermore,
the directive of the Bishop is very clear: for
those who are not parishioners of St. Mary’s by
the Sea: either geographically not from our parish (visitors are OK),
registered/willing being part of St. Mary’s by the Sea: either geographically not from our
parish (visitors are OK), or intentionally not registered/willing being part of St. Mary’s by
the Sea (but just coming for the Tridentine
Mass), they should go back to their home
parishes to request the Tridentine Mass or they
can go to Mission San Juan Capistrano or Pope
John Paul II Center to attend the Tridentine
Mass celebrated there.
Many will remember the previous problems at St. Mary by the Sea and Fr. Tran where parishioners complaining about not kneeling after the Agnus Dei were told "with the approval of the Bishop, I (very sadly) officially invite you To leave the parish St. Mary’s by the Sea and the diocese of Orange." Fr. Tran has even said that it was a "mortal sin" to kneel after the Agnus Dei. Something that was clarified later by the diocese. The parish at one time held the indult Mass and this stopped, I believe, after the arrival of Fr. Tran causing much friction in the parish.
First off I would like to applaud Fr. Tran for responding to those in his parish who would like the extraordinary form of Mass and his commitment to learn to celebrate it. With all of the bad blood in the parish it would have been so easy to finds reasons not to do so.
I do though wonder about the Bishop’s directives and Fr. Trans’ interpretation. Surely as the Bishop states parishioners should go to their home parish to let them know of their desire for the older form of Mass. But I don’t think the either/or directive meets muster. Under the current code of Canon Law the faithful are not restricted to mainly attend Mass at their own parish. I just don’t see how someone could be restricted from attending their Tridentine Mass. Plus how could such a restriction be carried out in the first place? Will parishioners have to prove parish registry to attend the Mass if they are not visitors? Will there be a secret knock or a password required? (Which would be Swordfish for Marx brother’s fans) Ushers trained to identify non-registered Catholics stationed at the door. Wanted: Ushers with previous training as bouncers with skills to detect non St. Mary’s by the Sea parishioners. Maybe registered parishioners will get their hand inked with some permanent stamp like at some amusement park.
Wouldn’t anybody attending who is not registered technically a visitor anyway? Plus the whole system of parish registry is not something mandated from Canon Law and is really just a tool parishes use.
Kudos to Fr. Tran for making available the Tridentine Mass, but there is a problem with either inviting people to leave or requesting people not to come in the first place.
[Via Roman Catholic Blog]
23 comments
Yes, when it gets so bad no one who’s remotely still Catholic can stand it, the message has to be sent. They’re not listening to anything anyone tells them, so you have to speak a language they understand. That would be the only way we have left of making an impression–namely money. Sad to say, but that’s how it is.
I think parish shopping is one the most Protestant things we Catholics do…I grew up Baptist and I know from experience that families would drop a church and join another over the most minor problems. I agree with Fr. Tran wholeheartedly here: don’t go to a parish just b/c it offers the Extraordinary Form…unless you are willing to become a member, contribute time/talent/treasure, and make it your spiritual home–whether the E.F. is being regularly offered or not. Not doing this could result in the parochial divisions the nutty liberals are predicting.
But, PNP, the Catholic Church is supposed to be the same church everywhere in the world. What difference can it possibly make if you attend Mass at your geographical parish, or elsewhere. I would say that you should certainly support your registered parish, but Mass is for ALL the faithful, no matter where they reside. Can a member of St Agnes in Rome not attend Mass at St Peter’s? No one wants to see the Church any more divided, but I thought the Holy Father said that both rites are Latin, just different forms. What am I missing here?
If you go to Mass somewhere, week after week, then you should be willing to register and get involved with the life of the parish. Nothing unreasonable there.
The thing about the Tridentine, though, is that it requires specialization. In most dioceses not every priest will have the time or money to get trained. Not every parish, even, has their own priest. It would make sense, at least at first, for certain parishes to offer the Tridentine mass on behalf of the diocese. By having an open invitation to all in the diocese, more people will know about the Tridentine and more people will then know enough to request it. I can’t see how hoarding a rite will further the gospel. It just doesn’t seem very Christian.
I know there are some pretty demanding hyper-conservatives out there who seem to have a new license to boss their priests around. This is a separate issue of humility and obedience, one that strong priests will do well to address. And we would do well to pray for them.
///either geographically not from our parish (visitors are OK), registered/willing being part of St. Mary�s by the Sea: either geographically not from our parish (visitors are OK), or intentionally not registered/willing being part of St. Mary�s by the Sea (but just coming for the Tridentine Mass)///
They’re not discouraging one-time visitors. And They don’t mind people from elsewhere in the diocese joining the parish. But they are encouraging people who want to come to register and to become active members of the parish, and like I said, I don’t see that as a bad thing.
A real parish would be one that you could WALK to. But given this is Southern California, it’s highly unlikely. Though there are some places where one could, as I was able to do at the Ventura mission, it isnt a way things are done these days it seems. Far too many parishes these days are “commuter churches” that are far from any of their parishioners. Should be that the neighborhood has a church, and the church has a neighborhood, making a reciprocal relation and responsibility for both, but alas, it isnt that way most places…
“Wouldn’t anybody attending who is not registered technically a visitor anyway?”
Well, now there’s your loophole! And what if people were to attend at and participate in their own parish but still “visit” until the TLM is available at their own parish? Yikes, I visit all over the place for the simple reason of Mass schedules (daily) conflicting (or not) with my own family obligations. And I’m HAPPY when I see parish bulletins suggesting events or differently-scheduled Masses at other churches, esp when they extend invitations over the state/diocesan borders. I always took that as a positive sign.
How, after all, can we be neighbors to all nations if we can’t show and expect fellowship to parishes that are practically (and sometimes literally) next door!!!
This seems strange for any priest to say mass and not want people to attend. Is he afraid of a big crowd? Too many people wanting to worship God and receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. It is a good problem to have. It would be nice if they came regardless of what form the mass was celebrated in. Still, praise God that people want to come and serve them as His priest. Don’t tell them to go away.
Sure parish shopping should be discouraged. I agree there. But it should not be done by telling people not to come to mass. It certainly should not be tied to the particular rite you are celebrating.
You need to teach that God puts us in communities with Catholics very different from us for a good reason. We can learn from them. Not just their way of encountering God but also how to be patient and loving with people who think very differently from you. This parish has experienced that big time.
A similar situation is present in other Dioceses.
Parish membership is not merely a ‘registration-for-dues’ deal. Some sacraments REQUIRE membership in a parish (Confirmation, Matrimony, First Confession/Communion.) There are ‘exceptional situations’ which the Canon Law provides for, but actual formal membership is a requirement.
Once that “membership” thing is accepted, then it seems only fair that if you go to St.X church, you ought to support St.X church.
If it is not ok to go to St. Mary’s if you are not a parishioner, then why is it ok to go to the John-Paul II Center, or to San Juan Capistrano?
The policy needs to be consistent. I’ll wager that the Diocesan Liturgy office will publish a “clarification” within a couple of days.
Maybe I’m losing it in my old age, but the St. Mary’s by the Sea announcement made no sense to me.
But then I realize that this parish is in the Diocese of Barney aka Orange.
My point is that though parish life is essentially and irrevocably rooted in the Mass, attending Mass is not the same as having a parish life. Attending Mass at a parish b/c the you find that the priest meets your standards or b/c you like the decor or b/c you don’t know anyone and therefore no one will you to do anything other than scoot down the pew–all of these reasons and reasons like them are ego-centered and essentially uncharitable. As an orthodox priest who celebrates the Ordinary Form strictly according to the rubrics, I would love for folks who want a reverent Mass to attend my Masses and support me when I am confronted by 70 y.o. hippies who want me to wear the tie-dye chausable Fr. Hollywood brought back from his liberation-mission trip to Honduras’ guerilla freedom-fighters, BUT you are off at the Extraordinary Form seventy miles away b/c we have a violin in the choir! OK. I’m exaggerating just a little…I’m a southern writer, go figure…but my point is really very simple: nothing will change for the better if you don’t stay where you ought to be and work for something better. The whole mentality of “I Vote With My Feet and My $$$” is so Protestant I don’t where to begin…
Fr. Philip, OP
There are two issues here, then, Fr P? Parish loyalty and fellowship among parishes? Regarding loyalty, I do know of people who use their membership to try and coerce their pastor, and I know of people who just leave when something is not exactly to their tastes. (Aren’t these people rare, though?) Then, there is a third scenario, one in which the so-attached-that-leaving- would-rip-out-the-heart-roots parishioner (my parish tends to create that feeling), finds it is time to move on for reasons of spiritual development or some other significant change. They always leave in tears, with the pastor’s blessing, are always free to return and HAVE always been free to visit other parishes as needed or wished. I think that’s an ideal scenario, except for the heart-roots part, which hurts.
The fellowship I was applauding promotes visiting and grows community w/in and outside the diocese, as long as the parishioners are on their best behavior outside of their parish and don’t come back demanding “greener grass”. (As we are imperfect, our manners also need some perfecting.) This parish-sharing has even blossomed in some places to include the RETURN of parish envelopes to their respective parishes after Sunday collections, ie, if a parishioner “visits” he can still use his donation envelope and it will “come home”. I think that’s cool. What do you think?
Joanne, we don’t disagree. I have no problem with visiting other parishes on occasion. I am less happy with “parish shopping” until one finds what one is “comfortable with”–if I could zap just one phrase/attitude from the church…! When a member of a parish even thinks of trying to protest a practice, a song, a pastoral decision, an aesthetic, et al. by threatening to leave the parish or by withholding donations, that very thought is Protestant by definition. It is simply not how we operate as a Body. The ears don’t stop hearing b/c the fingers like to turn the volume knob to “10.” I would argue that inasmuch as my vow of obedience to my order compels me to accept quite a lot I wouldn’t accept in normal circumstance, I think that baptism commits the lay faithful to place allegiance to a local church family over tastes, preferences, etc. Of course, there are instances when something so outrageous is going on that you threaten formal cooperation in sin if you stay…but I imagine those instances are rare. Bottomline: your parish is not a restaurant to which you give your business so long as everything is to your liking–the service is good, the other customers behave themselves to your standards, the staff is friendly and never demanding, etc. Though I’ve been “tipped” by parishioners on the way out the door on Sunday, those tips never change the service!
Fr. Philip, OP
I have no problem whatsoever with parish shopping. There are very good reasons why choosing a parish is necessary.
Fr. Philip,
What if I stay in my geographical parish, spend three years trying as charitably and gently as I could to change attitudes about inappropriate music and blatantly incorrect liturgical practice, offering my time and money to help, and nothing happens because I am apparently the only one who cares? When the pastor actually tells me that no one else sees things the way I do, and he sees no reason to change anything?
I had that experience in my home town. When I moved to a new city, I parish-hopped to find a parish with a choir that sings appropriate music, with a priest who follows the rubrics most of the time, where I wouldn’t have to work so hard anymore, because I’m tired. I’m tired of the ugly music and the ugly banners and the nun preaching the homily, and after fighting three years and getting nowhere, I have no more energy to start over at a new parish now. I want going to Mass to have as few distractions as possible, because praying is hard enough without the rock band pounding in my ears.
Does that make parish-hopping a little more understandable?
I know that not everyone who parish-hops has actually tried to change things in their home parish, but some of us tried very hard. Please don’t think we’re all parish-hopping for trivial reasons.
Just what does “getting involved” consist of? I’m serious.
I’m not about to become a “eucharistic minister” in defiance of the Vatican. All the other so-called “ministries” are fought over vigorously by the many immature persons trying to position themselves in a “church job.” It’s a scandal. These same persons a) could not hold a similar job in any other endeavor, b) invariably are divorced or near childless, c) often don’t know the first thing about their faith.
Jane is 100% correct.
Fr,
On the one hand you say:
…nothing will change for the better if you don’t stay where you ought to be and work for something better.
And on the other you say:
“When a member of a parish even thinks of trying to protest a practice, a song, a pastoral decision, an aesthetic, et al. by threatening to leave the parish or by withholding donations, that very thought is Protestant by definition.
Soooo, how is this “working for better” supposed to happen exactly? Mental telepathy?
This is exactly the problem. Suppose you, as a priest, decide it’s okay to get out the rattles and dance around a statue of the “earthmother” (or whatever)? (Don’t laugh: this is the stuff of the local religious order in this diocese.) Am I supposed to stay and pay you lip service until you come to your senses? All the while paying you for the privilege? My answer is most emphatically not.
I am a convert too. I converted to the Roman Catholic church, all 2000 years of her. I didn’t convert to the passions and perversities of just anybody’s little domain that I happen to land in. I am not *just* a member of some little local community–if I wanted that, and if the whole 2000 years hadn’t mattered to me, I’d still be Lutheran.
Yes, I go to a parish because I go to mass and that’s the practical end of it. There is no “parish life” in many parishes, and when there is it belongs to a very few favored politicos who are in or who want a “church job.”
Most catholics show up (when they show up) to go to mass once a week, and that’s it. There are no other provisions made for them. And that’s how it is. The building is closed the rest of the time and it does no good to go down there. *The doors are locked.*
I have come to understand that living as a Catholic does not necessarily involve being a “eucharistic minister” or anything of the sort. I does involve behaving like a catholic on the regular secular jobs that most of us have. It involves eschewing birth control and some other medical “advances.” It involves prayer, lots of it. It involves adopting a Catholic viewpoint on the world–an adherence to truth which the rest of the culture most emphatically and obviously does not share.
I have a suggestion for you. If it bothers you so much to have your parishoners go looking for the Mass of John XXIII, then you’d ought to learn to say it yourself. You can’t control people. They *will* go where they need to go.
I agree with Jane. We were asked formally in a letter by our priest to not be CCD teachers and to leave the parish because we “were too Catholic”. We wanted to use orthodox books (This is the Faith and Faith & Life) to teach CCD and the priest was not happy with our choices. After hearing the increasingly bizarre and un-Catholic things he was saying during the homilies we decided it would be better for everyone involved if we just quietly removed ourselves and started attending the local indult chapel.
I don’t want to give money to the local Jesuit priest who thinks he is “smarter than the Pope” becuase he took a couple of classes in Canon Law. I don’t want my children to attend Mass at a parish where the priest thinks it is okay for the chick altar servers to wear flipflops and have 6 eucharistic ministers for 150 parishoners.
If more people had voted with their pocketbooks and their feet when it came to liturgical abuses they wouldn’t have become so widespread, but people just stayed and popped a check in the basket so the priests took it as a “like what you are doing, keep up the innovations.”
I once heard of a bishop of a parish under seige from within who said, “The collections are good, so there’s no problem there.” When peacemaking efforts failed, many people left to support and worship at neighboring parishes.
The more I read, the more I see how many blessings I have received! No, I have not as yet attended the “perfect” Mass as described by traditionalists, but all my pastors have been reasonable, understanding, holy shepherds. While some “new” ideas and practices that are not to my liking sneak in, here and there, on the whole I have much to be thankful for. Blessed be God!
For all of you who suffer through the Liturgy, I pray. Do not lose heart. See, already the Holy Father hears and is acting on your behalf.
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