The Saginaw Seminarians are producing a set of videos and judging from the first one this looks quite promising. Based on the Mac vs. PC commercial they make some great points.
Contraception vs. NFP
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"It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it." GKC
21 comments
to hoodlum again:
“consuming the flesh of Jewish Zombie” ooo good one, u like to say flashy things without doing ur homework apparently; zombies are dead, Jesus is alive, if u can take the word of the fifteen or however many people were eyewitnesses of him after he rose, or if you can take the word of those saints nearly two thousand years later who had an intimate relationship with Him and who, since u mention “zombies”, happen to be incorrupt in their bodies which are somehow miraculously preserved even after lots and lots of years of being dead… sounds pretty un-zombie-ish to me.
since u obviously like reading blogs with which you disagree, u ought to consider switching to some good books with which you disagree. u might want to start with c.s.lewis and chesterton; theyre pretty sharp, you know.
Of course, people who do not use nfp are always the ones to laugh at those who do, and tell them what’s wrong with it. It shows their stupidity, ignorance and – did I mention stupidity?
Merely popping contraceptive pills can’t diagnose real serious medical problems. Normally, the pill is used to treat symptoms of something unknown that a doctor doesn’t feel like trying to find. The pill can mask a lot of problems, but cures none, while rapidly poisoning the one who takes it. The Pill ages the cervix two years for every year of its use because it dries out the lubricative mucous significantly. Another reason women who have used the pill for years often find pregnancy difficult to achieve. Their cervixes are ‘older’ than they are.
But nfp charts can and do diagnose serious problems frequently, from thyroid problems, progesterone & estrogen deficiencies, cysts and tumors, infertility issues, track menopausal cycles, and quite often it can be used to help women who have miscarriages to have successful pregnancies by pinpointing the problems causing it.
Another interesting thing to consider are the hand held urine monitor devices (google LadyComp) that were promoted in Germany years ago, and are still used by countless women there (and are allowed by the socialized health care). They allow women to monitor their body temperature and hormone levels daily in urine and avoid pregnancy by avoiding intercourse during their fertile cycles or to get pregnant by taking advantage of them. The machine keeps a chart of the temps & levels, predicts peak fertility, and it even allows doctors to find hormonal imbalances and infertility issues. They are being offered by the German health care system as an alternative to using the pill because of all the harmful side effects. Women who use them like them, and there are a growing number of women in the United States interested in owning one.
It is promoted in Germany as an advance for women, who do not have to swallow artificial hormones into their bodies (and gain weight, and lose their libido permanently) or stop intimacy to fumble with little packages, or irritate their bodies with harsh chemcial spermicides. German men apparently don’t mind waiting a week for intimacy to resume if it means healthier and happier wives.
By the way, ClearBlueEasy manufactures a device that can be bought at the local drug store here in the US for a bit more than $200 and then $50/month for the daily sticks. Of course in the US, they are not advertised for avoiding pregnancy, just for achieving it because the FDA has been incredibly slow to approve them for that reason, although similar devices been used with success in Germany for years. The German government claims a 1% pregnancy rate if the devices are properly used to avoid.
Kind of like…. what nfp does….for free.
Go ahead, Chuckles, laugh at that, too.
LMAO @ open to life :)). Please, the person is still trying to dodge getting pregnant, but merely uses a less effective system to doing so at the command of the religious masters.
Also, a program that requires users to abstain, sometimes for months at a time, cannot also allowed them to have sex whenever they want to. Something is either restricted and unrestricted.
I like the attacks on the side effects of contraception. It is tragic that the pill, like every other medical treatment known to humankind has side effects.
Anyway, if your god is so powerful, an oral contraceptive should pose no problems to his plans in Psalm 139.
Well hoodlum, I have to say I agree with one thing you said. I also believe NFP can be used as a way to avoid pregnancy, however, as a rare Catholic who believes in allowing God total control over my fertility, I would start a whole lot of arguments “going there.”
The rest of your post, however, is crap. The “command of your religious commanders” in this country is to “follow your own conscience.” Those couples who do not use contraception are actually at odds with many of their “commandments.”
My husband and I can have sex whenever we want, provided we are willing to accept a possible pregnancy, and provided it is even possible. Many couples abstain, willingly or not, for many different reasons. What if one spouse is out of town? What if one spouse is ill? What if the wife is on her period and they are not “into that.” There are many reasons couples abstain at certain times; it is not some inhuman feat.
Yes, just about every medical treatment has side effects. One must weigh if they are worth risking to use the treatment. This, however, has nothing to do with contraception. Contraception does not treat something that needs to be fixed. Fertility is a sign of health, not sickness. Its even for a man to say, “yeah, take the pill, its no big deal.” You’re not the one that risks blood clots, strokes, liver disease, infertility or breast cancer.
Our God is indeed more powerful than contraception. just ask the people who get pregnant while using them. However, He respects our right to choose (wow! thats a first for you to hear, huh?), and will not force anything upon us.
If we choose to poison our bodies and keep Him out of our lives, so be it. We will reap our own consequences as opposed to His rewards.
A very happy woman in a contraception-free marriage.
Meh. People on the pill don’t talk much? That’s not generalizing. To have a healthy marriage, communication is key, and that involves talking about when to have sex. You cant just pounce on someone and expect them to put out just because there’s no chance of pregnancy. Respect still has to be there. And not everyone believes that when someone gets pregnant, it’s divinely ordained. People get pregnant because they have sex, not because God decides to pop a kid in someone’s uterus. Although, that is my view and I’m aware it is not shared by everyone. But, God can be present in lives while they ARE using contraception, and someone can’t say otherwise unless they’ve been in that person’s shoes, or, well, bed. I’m not that worried about what teh church says. They’re not always too keen on new science. Give ’em time. The only valid reason I see for avoiding things like the pill (which can really help hormone imbalances, actually, depending on the person) is because there is a tiny chance of it acting as an abortificant (sp?).
Of course, Hoodlum misses the point: NFP can and has been used just as a contraceptive is used, namely, merely to avoid pregnancy. (Then, NFP, when followed by the scientific rules, is actually more effective than contraception–CCL rates it as 99% effective, leaving 1% for God!) John Paul II even addressed that problem in the final cycle of his talks on the theology of the body.
What we’re dealing with here is in the heart. Think of the Sermon on the Mount: if a man even looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he has made her an adultress/committed adultery with her because he “takes possession” of her body, treats it as an object, to fulfill his lustful desires. Even a husband, then, can commit “adultery in his heart” with his own wife if all he wants is pleasure at the expense of his wife’s body. Marriage is not a license for men to “have their way” with their wives, and the marital embrace, as a sacramental sign of God’s love for humanity, should ever be filled with love of the other as a total person–and that includes fertility.
Couples who follow the Church teaching on sexual morals–that is, couples who honestly recognize the good of the other as a person whose very existence is a good and seek only to build up that person, not take something from her–have a divorce rate below 5%, compared with a national average of over 40%. In fact, because couples with a GOOD REASON to POSTPONE (not AVOID) pregnancy must at times abstain from intercourse, they value both each other as individuals and the marital act as a loving embrace more than the average couple; and because they must abstain on occasion, NFP users tend to make love more often than the general public. Why? Because the act in which a husband totally and freely offers himself to his wife, and she to him, is recognized as something special, something sacred.
Society thinks that the Catholic Church undervalues sexual intercourse. That belief, ironically held by a society that uses sexual imagery to sell everything from clothing to cigarettes, from cell phones to automobile tires, couldn’t be further from the truth. The Church knows just how VALUABLE and, therefore, SACRED the marital embrace is, and she wants the world to know it. NFP, when practiced rightly IN THE HEART, helps couples to love each other as persons–not some simple repository for lust.
Hoodlum, read up on the theology of the body, I urge you. The reasonable man, while perhaps not respecting the other’s argument, at least hears him out. http://www.christopherwest.com is a great place to start!
From a Catholic husband whose marriage has been greatly enriched by NFP, and especially by the teachings of John Paul the Great in the theology of the body.
Anyway, if your god is so powerful, an oral contraceptive should pose no problems to his plans in Psalm 139.
By this logic, I should be able to point a gun at someone’s chest, pull the trigger, and God can just jam the gun if he doesn’t want me to kill him. The Church does not teach that avoiding a pregnancy is wrong, it’s the means not the ends. (Which is Catholicism 101 if anyone could be bothered to actually check before posting.)
But, God can be present in lives while they ARE using contraception
Sure, to get them to convert from The-Immediate-Needs-of-My-Groin philosophy.
The Church must be on the right track about contraception because not only are the arguments against it bad thinking, but bad thinking rigorously cheered for.
I think the worship of hipsters is a greater threat to humanity than contraceptives.
From what I gather from this video and the comments here, NFP is
a)Free
B)works better than the pill or other contraception
C)leads to more sex
D)allows people to have sex whenever they want to.
Yet, nobody seems to be using it. I can think of two possibile explanations. The first is that secular American society is so hateful of anything religious, that they rather spite themselves and lose out lots of sex than admit the RC is correct. Given the power and prelevance of Christianity in America, this is doubtful.
The second explanation is that NFP does not work nearly as well or possess the benefits its boosters alleged it does. So, people turn to more effective solutions like condoms and the pill.
The data’s out there to confirm that it does indeed work as well as people say it does.
Why don’t they use it, then? The third explanation is that most people have never even thought to use it; before I took my faith seriously, I didn’t know about NFP.
The fourth and most likely explanation is that people are simply… lazy. Lazy. Lazy. Charting fertility takes time and consistency, especially at first when you’re getting used to the whole process. And unless you’re really serious about it, why are you going to take the time to do it, versus just popping some pill or using a condom?
It’s convenience and a lack of knowledge on the effectiveness of NFP (a lack of knowledge displayed rather conveniently on this very page) that leads to its fringe use.
Someone mentioned hipsters, which is interesting because there is growing popularity among the organic-coop-shopping types (ok, Leftist moonbats) in NFP. Obviously not because of the Church teaching, but for a chemical-free method.
Good call, Scott W. There are some real weirdos who are into the whole “natural” thing, and that’s great, because we need to be getting the artificial hormones out of our body (remember Jeff’s post a few weeks back on the artificial hormones in the water supply, causing deformed fish, etc?)
LMAO @ Scott or Chris calling anyone moonbats or weirdos. At the risk of getting myself banned or censored like a Google result in China, you do realize your belief system is based on the idea that consuming the flesh of a Jewish Zombie will grant you immortal life, right?
to hoodlum:
i dunno what kind of nfp you’re talking about, but i’ve never heard of having to abstain for any more than like four days a month.
try as i might, i can’t think of any reason i would ever want to use contraception when i get married. nfp is just so obviously a better idea.
Shana, (FYI) costco sells the sticks for $35 online, and the box is a 3 month supply. There are actually several of these devices around, some of which are more effective during the period before your cycle returns after a baby, during menopause, etc. I think they’re not very popular in the US because of FDA approval hoops that need to be jumped. They are much more expensive than NFP charting, but you don’t have to take a refresher course after having a baby.
And who says nobody uses NFP? I know oodles of people who do. H needs to do a little more reading. A book on manners to start with, perhaps?
This is case where I can only applaud US Bishops. In the States, there is information available on NFP through the Church. In the country where I live, the priest couldn’t tell me where I could get information and didn’t seem to be remotely interested in finding out, and my situation is complicated enough that I do need an instructor. Unfortunately, David, normal amounts of abstinence range from 7 – 14 days and they are longer for some of us, and _much_ longer if you can’t figure out what’s going on. Needless to say we aren’t not doing all that we should – but we need only postpone a few more months. We have been pleased with “Peronsa” – one of the hormone monitoring systems (10 eur/cycle) – because it’s helping us in a situation where there are no instructors available. (Monica is spot on about the FDA. It’s considered a “medical device” and the testing for approval would be extremely expensive.)
Hoodlum:
First, way to go…you’ve managed to make every childish argument against NFP and Catholicism in a whopping three posts. I applaud your immaturity.
The other Amy above stole my thunder – so much so, my husband thought that was MY reply – but I echo everything she said:
NFP is free, unless you choose to use a fertility monitoring system (which is perfectly moral, by the way).
NFP gives a woman a chance to really learn her cycle and not only identify fertile periods, but realize if something is wrong LONG before medical tests would indicate a problem.
NFP IS open to life…despite what you, who seems so schooled in it, believes. You forget that *intent* is just as important as actual behavior. Using contraception denies life – even if someone conceives while using contraception. NFP is ALWAYS open to life – even at times when a couple tries to avoid pregnancy. The INTENT of denying life is not there, because life could begin.
NFP is healthier. You are some really modern hipster if you think it’s 1) okay for a woman to take pills that could cause blood clots or cancer or 2) allow yourself (if you’re a woman) to take pills that could cause blood clots and cancer so you can be available at the whim of a man. NFP respects the dignity of the human body.
As has been said above – fertility is NOT a disease. Contraception treats it as such.
Couples who practice NFP have a divorce rate of around 3%…pretty low by today’s standards. Couples who contracept have a divorce rate much higher than that.
And, thanks for insulting our religion in the most foul manner. It’s a good indication that you can’t win in the arena of ideas if you turn to insults.
I think your problem with NFP is you’re afraid there’ll be too many Catholic kids running around…how dare we “outbreed” someone as enlightened and “with it” as you, right?
Well, Jeff, I hope you don’t censor Hoodlum. He/she/it is a very good argument for being Catholic. Seriously, Hoodlum, if we’re wrong–how does it impact your life? I’m pretty sure that the albino monks are not likely to come and murder you in your sleep. Give it a rest–NFP is NOT a medical treatment, and has no side effects–no one can argue that one. If it’s not effective, once again, no skin off your nose. I personally applaud the people who are willing to use NFP when pregnancy needs to be avoided (yes, there are times for this). Even if I weren’t a Catholic, I would applaud a method that is safer for women that messing with their hormones, and better for everyone than putting a barrier between one and one’s spouse. Grow up, Hoodlum, and give up trolling Jeff’s website. You’ll make no converts here.
I am glad to hear so many positive comments from happy NFP users. It indicates that NFP has gotten better and saner in the last decade or so, which makes it much easier to suggest as solution to those who are looking for one.
Just a comment about the abstinence involved with NFP. If you already use NFP and are happy with your level of abstinence don’t read any more of this post as it is not intended for you.
If you’re experiencing more abstinence than you are happy with (say more than two weeks), you may wish to consider the Billings Ovulation Method (www.woomb.org). Needing more than two weeks of abstinence while using Billings is so rare that requiring more than two weeks of abstinence is either a teaching error or it merits the attention of the most senior teachers in the country.
Richard Wan, President
Natural Family Planning Association of Alberta
ED (not this one!) wrote on July 30:
“I’m not that worried about what teh church says. They’re not always too keen on new science. Give ’em time.”
And I read this today at http://www.hli.org/article_contraception_love_killer.html. I found it apropos (emphasis mine):
“The point is not to pick on Sean, who is a good man, albeit mistaken about his faith, but this incident throws into relief the problem of so many Catholics who share his view. The question for Sean and other Catholics, who are under the impression that this teaching is optional, is: If your moral compass is not calibrated to the True North of the Magisterium, what is it set to? From whom do you take direction? What is the authority you have set above that of the Church�s divinely established teaching authority? �Conventional wisdom?� A �climate of opinion?� Or is it a smug attitude of what C.S. Lewis called �chronological snobbery� following the na�ve assumption that the Church is �behind the times� on these questions and needs to catch up with the �modern world?�) If nothing else, any conservative ought to recognize that the �modern world� is a train wreck, due what Pope Paul VI called �a general lowering of morality� that would ensue if contraception became widespread. (Humanae Vitae, No. 17)”
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