WASHINGTON–Last week, Andrew M. Greeley, the well-known liberal priest and sociologist of all things Catholic, gave a celebrity interview to his fans. Though his main interlocutor was Robert Orsi, the chairman of the religion department at Harvard, Father Greeley also took some questions from the audience, most of whose members were gathered here for the annual conference of the American Academy of Religion. One person asked about the potential for the lay group Voice of the Faithful to transform the church, another about whether nuns should return to wearing habits. Then a middle-aged woman in the back of the room asked Father Greeley about the changing face of the Catholic Church. The greatest growth in the world-wide Catholic population, she noted, has been coming for some years from new believers in South America and Africa, and the trend shows no signs of abating. What effect would this have on the church?
"We will depend on them for vitality," Father Greeley predicted. "But they will continue to depend on us for the ideas."
Well bad ideas are still ideas. Fr. Greeley and many like him do have a sort of reverse charism of infallibility. If you have a list of ideas to preach the Gospel and to help the Church grow you can always match it to one of his ideas and immediately cross it off your list. So in some ways they are a real time saver in eliminating failed ideas.
The current issue of First Things contains a quote from Fr. Greeley in 1987. He was asked to look 20 years ahead and tell what it would be like in 2007. He replied:
"The power of the pope definitely will shrink. Today we are experiencing the last gasp of a dying order, and in 20 years it will be gone."
Does Pope Benedict know he only has a month left? If only Fr. Greeley had been talking about himself and those sympathetic to him and he could have been a prophet.
27 comments
I think it is blindingly obvious whose order is dying, and it ain’t the papacy.
First, he’s talking about the pope’s power and how wrong is he? Seriously, how often is the Pope consulted on anything? Does anyone listen to him (besides the Muslims)? No, not even his own American Catholics. The followers in Africa and else where are going to dependent not only on ideas, but also money, which will become more scarce as the West moves beyond superstitution.
The future will between Islamic and Evangelicals with the Secularists desperately holding the line while they attempt to annihilate each other.
The future of Secularism in Europe can be seen in present day France. The impending Islamic Revolution in Western Europe won’t be pretty. In North America, secularists are a decreasing minority. The pope, however, remains the most influential individual teacher on the planet. When Marxism has gone the way of Shamashism and the Secretary-General of the UN and President of the United States are as archaic as the Roman Vigintisexviri, the Successor of Peter will still be the anchor of faith for the world’s oldest and most ubiquitous organization.
Good grief. What Greeley’s really saying is that we will depend on the Third World nations for breeding. He has just a notch more tact than does the National Catholic Reporter.
They will depend on us for the ideas?!?? The man is an elitist and a racist to boot.
He can’t see the movement of the Holy Spirit around him. He’s obviously blind. Pray for him.
Fr. Philip
I often wonder why Greeley remains a priest or indeed a Catholic.
Speaking of the Pope – he has returned safely from Turkey thank the Lord God.
The revolution’s over, Fr. Greeley. I know, I know, lots of ideas… problem is, ain’t nobody listening. Kinda sad, isn’t it?
For those who don’t know, that first excerpt is from the Wall Street Journal on Friday.
Well I was a huge fan of B16 till today when all over the front pages of the NY Newspapers they ran headlines “First time in history Pope Prays with Moslems”. Well we all know it is the SECOND time as JPII had the famous kissing of the Koran in 1999. Now we have B16 praying towards Mecca
I for one have an issue with respecting or following a man who would do such acts with such people who are bent on the destruction of Christianity and more than anything Catholicism and the Papacy.
So in his bent way, Greeley just may be correct, lets not forget the papacy after PaulVI concocted the synod of Bishops, smashed his tiarra and gave it to the UN or whatever is now no more than the Bishop of Rome and handed power over to all of the Bishops, as the Pope cant even get a universal indult passed (or so the excuse goes) because it is “Up to the Independent Bishops”
He has become no different than the King or Queen of England, a powerless figurehead
“We will depend on them for vitality,” Father Greeley predicted. “But they will continue to depend on us for the ideas.”
This made me gasp with its unbridled imperialistic arrogance. The man has revealed himself clearly for this one brief moment.
I listen to him and I’m American Catholic, so there’s one. 🙂
John:
Oh yes, I am sure that the Holy Father was silently reciting: “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.” [/sarcasm]
The Holy Father stood in silent prayer in a modest posture as a non-Muslim guest in a mosque, as any polite guest would do. I have no doubt whatsoever that he was praying to the Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Check out Matthew 5: 44-45. The Holy Father is only following the teachings of Christ.
1989- through JPII’s efforts- Communism falls
The power of Fr. Greeley will definitely shrink. Today we are experiencing the last gasp of a dying order, and in 20 years it will be gone.
😉
(I’m betting for less than 20 years. The left guard is falling 6 foot under fast.)
John, I understand what you are saying, but I believe that Benedict understands better what is happening than previous popes.
It is his job to restore the faith and stand firm. It is our job to pray that he “does not listen to the wolves” as he requested on the day he was elected to the papacy.
I agree with you that the a more traditional and reverent mass (like the TLM) should be restored over the top of whiners and evil-doers, no matter what their reactions might be. The pope should have that power and he should exercise that power. If he does not, in some way, he fails. Yes.
The next few years will be horrific in Europe I believe. We are heading into a historic era of violence again. It is going to make our little skirmishes over the mass look like a tea party, but then perhaps they will fall into perspective and we’ll be able to be truthful about what worship is about.
I still would like to see Greeley come clean about the Chicago “ring of predators” (but I’m not holding my breath):
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1299
Michigan
I agree with you, but it seems the Pope has time to pray in mosques but not the power to restore reverence to our church
And I disagree with the so called “respect for other religions” garbage line, as the Vicar of Christ like all before the Second Vatican Council refused for obvious reasons to appear in the so called Holy places of these faiths. If one is the One true faith, then why should we seek truth in other faiths as the Vatican II documents tell us to do? IT is wrong and harmful to the faithful and presents confusion
I was one of B16’s biggest supporters until a few days ago as I had no idea this trip to Turkey was to be one big sellout of Catholicism
John once again reflects the old adage, more Catholic than the Pope.
How exactly is standing in silent prayer at a Mosque a “sellout” of the faith? Where is it proscribed to do such a thing?
And indeed the VII docs suggest that there are elements of truth in all faiths (which is true), but it makes abundantly clear that there is only one that contains the fullness of truth – our Roman Catholic faith. We should not thumb our noses at all who profess another creed in some arrogant supposition that they are unworthy to lick our boots.
So get off your high horse already.
Nothing wrong with what the Holy Father did. To allow something as benign as this to ruin your trust in him is silly.
Our more traditionalist brothers and sisters are starting to sound more and more like your liberal brothers and sisters: I accept the Pope’s authority as the successor of Peter when and only when he agrees with me. Very Protestant.
Fr. Philip
More Catholic than the Pope
Well when the Pope starts to ask you to pray to Mecca will that change your opinion? We have already been asked to pray as Protestants with the Novus Ordo Mass which has no roots in Catholic tradition and that seems to be OK with all
Or possibly kissing the Koran a heretical act that by many theologian accounts would vacate the chair of Peter
One must follow their heart and teachings of the church-One must remember it is the Church that reformed itself (aka Protestants just some 500 years later), not Traditionalists who only worship as Catholics have done for 2 millenia
Well when the Pope starts to ask you to pray to Mecca will that change your opinion? We have already been asked to pray as Protestants with the Novus Ordo Mass which has no roots in Catholic tradition and that seems to be OK with all
Now you’re sounding absurd. It’s not that I don’t think the Mew Mass has its problems, but to suggest it has no roots in Catholic tradition is just silly. Mass was said in Greek originally (to the best of my knowledge), not Latin, and since the New Mass has all the essentials of Mass in it, I have no idea what you’re on about. And the New Mass has a lectionary that completely licks the TLM lectionary, given that it contains much more scripture. And while the New Mass can be said in Latin, there is a lot of benefit from hearing the Gospel in particular in the vernacular. Not everyone can read, you know.
Having said all that, I sincerely hope that the traditionalists get their universal indult. Maybe then they might spend more time trying to bring people to Christ and His Church and less time needlessly criticising the Holy Father.
Our more traditionalist brothers and sisters are starting to sound more and more like your liberal brothers and sisters: I accept the Pope’s authority as the successor of Peter when and only when he agrees with me. Very Protestant.
Too right, Fr Philip.
News Update: Traditionalists concur with Greeley! Of course the Pope is the vicar of Christ and successor of Peter – when he does and says exactly what I want him to do. “One must follow their heart and teachings of the church” i.e. one must follow one’s own interpretation of the teachings of the Church. The magisterium is only to be followed when it is in accordance with one’s own personal magisterium.
Hey, didn’t you once to a parody of this whole mindset, Jeff? I seem to remember some kind of kit for people who want to declare themselves Pope.
Anyways…
Not everything the Pope says or does is faith-bonding to Catholics.
We follow his ex-cathedra pronunciations. Ecumenism and collegiality do not belong to the deposit of faith.
There were protestant “observers” during the creation of the Novus Ordo mass. Why were they called in the first place?
To be faithful to tradition is now called radicalism!
Ya know, if you are in Constantinople and you are facing Mecca, you are also facing Jerusalem. I think that the image of the Pope wearing a cross in the Blue Mosque may do soemthing for religious freedom in Turkey at least.
I don’t think the pope did anything wrong at all in standing quietly praying to our God in a mosque. I think they were impressed with him beyond their expectations. It might have actually gotten them out of their ridiculous pharasitical and homocidal frame of mind for a few minutes.
This is nothing like kissing the Koran (ala PJP2), which was serious, very serious, and completely regrettable.
The two can’t be compared at all. PJP2 should have done what Benedict did instead.
BTW, looking at the video, you can see how ridiculous it was to have a whole mob of muslim poobahs watching anxiously to see if our brilliant little pope would do so much as to cross himself, thereby signalling his intention to take over the building.
Ridiculous. Don’t they know that God ordains these things, not us. The buildings will be Christian when & if God decides they will be. Surely, they do not have a problem with the will of God!
Louise
To compare the New Mass with 35 prayers deleted from the TLM is a bit absurd, as well as the Greek comparison as I as many devout knowledgeable Catholics know that the Traditional “Latin” Mass in the vernacular is 100x more reverent and true to the worship of God (have you forgotton that is why we go to mass?) than the New Mass in Latin! It has nothing really to do with the Latin, as one Traditional Priest once said to me, though it obviously has to be due to the fact the lame ICEL cant even get the words of consecration correct leaving the most important sacrament the church has to offer doubtful (yes-read your definition of the sacraments, the translation as well as the intention of many of the novus ordo priests are to be questioned as they themselves doubt transubstantiation) leaves one to search for a true traditional chapel
Comments are closed.