Religion News Service’s Dan Burke reports that next week’s much-awaited public discussion among the bishops on political support for abortion was struck from the agenda this afternoon: [source]
Somehow I have the strange compunction to sing the Sir Robin song from Monty Python and the Holy Grail to the bishops.
Update: Still on the agenda after all.
38 comments
So they aborted this agenda item?
News Flash! CNA is reporting here that the Bishops indeed do plan to discuss abortion as they claimed. I quote:
“According to bishops involved in the organization of the three-day meeting, which starts this Monday, the agenda, including a public discussion of abortion and politics, is fully on track.”
So, there you seem to have it. The article goes into more detail.
Brave Sir Robin ran away
Bravely ran away away
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, Brave Sir Roben turned about
and gallantly he chickened out
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the Brave, Sir Robin
Actually I thought that after this election they should totally abandon their agenda and spend the whole week in prayer asking the Holy Spirit to guide them on what they have done wrong over the past 40-years that has led to the loss of faith for most Catholics. Then they should get serious about the reality that they have been chosen to save souls, not see how much money they can raise or how many numbers they can hold in the fold. They are supposed to be shepards leading the flock to salvation. That means getting back to the basics and teach the faith in season and out of season – not trying to placate Catholics to make them feel comfortable in this world. We need to pray for more men like the Chaput, Finn, etc. May God bless our bishops that their eyes may be opened that they may deal with the real crisis of faith that exits in the Catholic community.
I have no idea why the item was struck, but I think we are missing the most troubling issue about Catholic support for Obama- that persons of obvious faith are aggressively in that fold.
I am not sure how to find the actual numbers, if it is even possible, but, anecdotaly, I know four Catholics who voted straight-ticket Dem in a way that they insist was prayerful and faithful. Two of them are Knights of Columbus and I can attest to their saying a rosary every day and attending mass regularly.
So… It can’t merely be that the Bishops have failed to lead and failed to effectively form our group conscience over the last 40 years. Something else is afoot.
In a related matter…
Are there any major Catholic lobbying efforts that are non-profit, tax exempt AND actively endorsing?
(I know this is a complicated issue. I have NO sympathy with the notion that religion should be barred from active political stances while secular non-profits like Planned Parenthood, also a 501(c)(3) is allowed to actively participate in the political process. If anyone knows, what is the LEGAL distinction between Planned Parenthood’s status and that of churches?)
I am tired of having to see America’s churches having to tip-toe around endorsements while we are subjected to a seemingly never-ending array of endorsements from secularists.
I wish I was suprised as well, that the Bishops dont want to tackle the horror of abortion, and i guess my questioning such has been fuel on other blogs like Mark Shea where one of his lemmings wrote
Jesus threw the tables over in the temple, I love our Pope but him calling Obama to congratulate him makes me question those actions as well
-John on that other blog
But Mark, you know his comments are right. I mean, the man is more Catholic than the pope himself.
Andy | 11.07.08 – 10:06 pm | #
I guess somehow I am getting labeled by those who are in complete agreement with ecumenism and that all faiths are equal
Do you think that Obama man can be converted by a phone call? Why does Obama need the Pope when 61% of his OWN sheep voted for Obama, what would the pope do for him?
What the Pope and the Bishops need to do is to be like the Pope’s of yesteryear, who refused to dialogue as it sent the wrong message
Pope Pius XII said so brilliantly in the encyclical, Humani Generis, warned about false ecumenism and stated: “Another danger is perceived which is all the more concealed beneath the mask of virtue. There are many who, deploring disagreement among men and intellectual confusion, through an imprudent zeal for souls, are urged by a great and ardent desire to do away with the barrier that divides good and honest men; …….But some through enthusiasm for an imprudent ‘irenism’ seem to consider as an obstacle to the restoration of fraternal union things founded on the laws and principles given by Christ and likewise on institutions founded by Him, … They cherish the hope that when dogma is stripped of the elements which they hold to be extrinsic to divine revelation, it will compare advantageously with the dogmatic opinions of those who are separated from the unity of the Church and that in this way they will gradually arrive at a mutual assimilation of Catholic dogma with the tenets of the dissidents. “
So I am not more Catholic than the Pope, just following the first teachings with respect to ecumenism from early on, and if I recall the church is not supposed to change. So if I am wrong now then she was wrong then
Pick your choice
Striking this from the agenda is probably not as bad as it seems. The USCCB has been a victim of group-think for many years. Contrast the vague and confusing documents from the USCCB with the clear documents from individual Bishops. The USCCB can be reliably counted on to support movies like Brokeback Mountain and The Golden Compass, after all, so it’s unclear they’ll do much better on matters of politics.
What we need is clear thinking by each Bishop, not some muddle-headed compromise from the conference that Bishops can fall back on when they want to pass the buck.
Striking this from the agenda is probably not as bad as it seems. The USCCB has been a victim of group-think for many years. Contrast the vague and confusing documents from the USCCB with the clear documents from individual Bishops. The USCCB can be reliably counted on to support movies like Brokeback Mountain and The Golden Compass, after all, so it’s unclear they’ll do much better on matters of politics.
What we need is clear thinking by each Bishop, not some muddle-headed compromise from the conference that Bishops can fall back on when they want to pass the buck.
To G-Veg: In a sense, you prove the point I was trying to make in my earlier comment. Those four “Catholics” can say they prayerfully and fatihfully discerned that they could vote for the pro-death candidate and even be members of the Knights of Columbus, say a rosary and go to Holy Mass regularly. But I say they do not have the faith that demands they be obedient to Jesus Christ and His teachings that come to us through His Church. This is the impression I get from many people who attend Sunday Holy Mass on a regular basis – they don’t have to believe everything the Church teaches. I really believe the core Church teaching so many object to and that which is the underpinning of all that has led us into the death culture is contraception. When you can’t get that right and tell your people that it is a serious sin against God to contracept, then it is simply the leak in the dam that leads to the flood – that is, you can then disobey other teachings too. How many Catholics today contracept? If they refuse to be obedient to that teaching then why should they be obedient to any teaching? And now the real question – how many times do you ever hear a bishop talk about this evil or a priest or deacon give a homily on the sinfulness of contraception? If you had asked those four Catholics that voted for Obama whether they used contraception or not, it may have been very revealing.
I will say it again, we need true shepards who will train their priests, deacons and religious to be faithful believers and teachers of Christ’s truths as they come to us through His Church. And they too must be fatihful believers!
The one that killed me was the pro-life guy who announced that he was voting for Obama, even though he supported abortion — in order to punish the Republican Party for not ending abortion already.
Sigh. People’s minds have been very clouded this year.
The concept of sin is getting weaker each year in the American Catholic Church. Weak church attendance, rare confessions, poor litergy, feel-good preaching, acceptance of homosexual lifestyle, rejection of marriage, acceptance of birth control, and now abortion in really just one of many moral issues. We need to return to fear and trembling with an eye to the four last things; Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell.
Amazing. Pick any topic from the bishops to oriental shrubbery, and somehow John will manage to use it as a way to carp about my evilness. Evidently, I’m now also responsible for the USCCB agenda.
Fascinating.
A lot of people commenting on this are not grasping that there is a public agenda and then two days of private discussions. The public agenda is related to specific action items related to documents and so on – not vaguer “what should we do about this” or “boy this is a mess.” Those happen in private – and not in the hotel lobby bar, either – in formal, but private sessions. During which the bishops have the freedom to be more direct with each other than they want to be in public.
Pope Benedict XVI will never support the immoral evil values of Mr. Barak Obama.
The Pope wants to keep dialogue open with him. Many world leaders have congratulated Mr. Obama. Holy wise Shepherd of the Church.
Cyndi
Reaching out to Barack Obama? For what? To “convert him”? The Vicar of Christ does not need to reach out to a man who is the antethesis of everything Catholic, it is the other way around.
Please read the teachings of all past popes on how reaching out to others of false faiths and religions for that matter is to be conducted
An enyclical is an infallible teaching and Leo XIII and Pius XII I think covered these subjects quite well where in summation they stated that though Ecumenism which by definitions sounds good, for the Vicar of Christ to participate in such endeavors sends the wrong message to the flock, and for Catholics to never ever participate in other faiths in worship with prior approval from their Bishop
Today we have just the opposite, one big lovefest
http://www.fisheaters.com/satiscognitum.html
http://www.fisheaters.com/humanigeneris.html
Catholic Obamites: G-Veg has seen ’em, and so have I. Most have become “China eggs” and “cafeteria Catholics” and will never morph into militant and uncompromising Catholics.
Does anyone want to argue that Catholics who attend the old Latin Mass voted for Obama? They knew better because they are taught better.
Vivian
Go back and read my message.
Where did I state that the Pope was out to convert Mr. Barak Obama?
Are you weighing the motives of the Pope?
Do you not know the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church?
The Holy Spirit does not force someone to convert to Catholicism.
P.S.
I will never support Mr. Barak Obama and his agenda to support a culture of death. I am 100% Roman Catholic under the direction of the most Holy Pope.
No no they have not retreated. This could be a diplomatic move. while it it easy for us to be all gung ho and full of action. The Bishops have to be much more prudent. Yes the Catholics did not listen. But there is a possibility that Elected ONE might change his procedures. It is a possibility that the Bishops have decided to pray for his conversion. NO point in jumping the gun just yet.
Till then i recommend that we pray for our bishops and also pray and fast that the God converts the Elected ONE.
The next USCCB should focus THIS HIPERSCANDAL:
A surgical attendant in an abortion is automatically excommunicated and… the brain-leader-law designer- (Biden, Pelosi, et all “Catholics”) of the cold blooded murder is not.
Lets illustrate this, with an anecdote:
Abp. Wuerl, YESSS the one who refuses to take responsibility of the Eucharistic historic MEGA-SCANDAL in DC… represents the USCCB fog machine (of vague-darkening statements) going full blast.
Said Wuerl:
“‘Faithful Citizenship’ says, are the life issues. I believe that’s what we’re going to be judged by historically, down the road. I think one hundred years from now, people are going to look back and wonder how it was possible that we could have had a culture that builds into it the wholesale destruction of unborn life”.
WOW! Does he ‘look back & wonder’, or is asking our forgiveness? Not. Neither the USCCB.
It takes a very hardened face to pontificate anew this, after YEARS PASSED BY eluding responsibility to teach and enforce JP II’s Encyclical EVANGELIUM VITAE (1995):
“The serious demographic, social and family problems which weigh upon many of the world’s peoples and which require responsible and effective attention from national and international bodies, are left open to false and deceptive solutions, opposed to the truth and the good of persons and nations.
The end result of this is tragic: not only is the fact of the destruction of so many human lives still to be born or in their final stage extremely grave and disturbing, but no less grave and disturbing is the fact that conscience itself, darkened as it were by such widespread conditioning, is finding it increasingly difficult to distinguish between good and evil in what concerns the basic value of human life”.
Disappointing news. So, if McCain/Palin were elected then they’d keep abortion/politics on the agenda??? Here’s a reminder on a Gift of the Holy Spirit:
The Gift of Fortitude brings to those who have it a dauntless spirit of resolution, firmness of mind, and indomitable will to persevere with a quiet faith in God’s providence that overcomes all obstacles. It also brings courage to persist in the practice of virtue despite trials, illness, persecution or external failure. A Catholic who becomes fervent in God’s service will soon be condemned by the world, but the gift of fortitude will sustain him as he walks toward the Cross.
Saving 1.3 million babies a year from abortion and protecting the Most August Sacrament of the Altar from profanation are a couple of important things to address –> at every Bishop’s meeting!
The Gift of Fortitude brings to those who have it a dauntless spirit of resolution, firmness of mind, and indomitable will to persevere with a quiet faith in God’s providence that overcomes all obstacles. It also brings courage to persist in the practice of virtue despite trials, illness, persecution or external failure. A Catholic who becomes fervent in God’s service will soon be condemned by the world, but the gift of fortitude will sustain him as he walks toward the Cross.
Fr. William Kuchinsky thank you for the reminder about the Gift of Fortitude. The words could almost be turned into a prayer. It’s a message of Hope.
Vivian I am sorry for my reaction. My words could’ve have stirred up a war. But God has given you a holy witness of silence and peace. Thank you for all that you do for the good of the Church. God bless you.
Cyndi
You posted the following:
“The Pope wants to keep dialogue open with him. Many world leaders have congratulated Mr. Obama. Holy wise Shepherd of the Church.”
How is the Pope “wise” to congratulate Mr Obama”? Maybe because Mr Obama got more “Catholics” to toe his own line than the Pope could on contraception and abortion? Could the Pope get 61% of Catholics to agree with him on his overall doctrine, or just say they are “Catholic” go to church, receive Holy Communion and have protected sex, watch movies and or shows that are sinful, and do not defend their own faith?
I agree as I would never think that we would see Pope’s of the 1950’s reach out the Stalin, Castro and others like them. I know abortion is a 1970’s creation, but the church cant even get the USCCB to come to a clear consensus to deny communion to those who advocate this death
Have we gone from bishop-bashing to skewering Pope Benedict, now? Maybe when we don’t understand an action by our ordained shepherds, especially the Vicar of Christ on earth, we should speak privately to wise and faithful priests rather than spew criticism and opinion. Meanwhile, if we ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom, humility, obedience, charity, understanding and patience He will answer us.
How can we come to understanding through sin? The more rely on our criticism of the Church for answers, the farther from the Truth we will be, I suspect.
Yes…”brave folks” they are indeed. I guess they figured that being frozen out of the national limelight would be too much to deal with. Cowards. Is it any wonder why we have a wishy-washy generation!!!
Dear fellow Roman-Catholics:
The following target-point —> previously posted here, has been censored in several “Catholic” blogs (overly terrified of the plain truth?):
Please do evaluate:
“A surgical attendant in an abortion is automatically excommunicated and… the brains-leaders-law designers- (Biden, Pelosi, et all “Catholics”) of the cold blooded murder… are not”.
Now:
ARE NOT those EXCOMMUNICATIONS, to be faced urgently in the next USCCB, according to the Vatican (Abp. Burke)?
Is the famous TO BE OR NOT TO BE? The ACHILLES HEEL indeed.
Regards
What matter, exactly, are the Bishops to be prudent in? Preaching the Gospel?
Let’s start with 1 Corinthians 9:16 and work from there.
If McCain/Palin had won, the USCCB would have issued a strong statement condemning capital punishment and re-iterated its support for income redistribution.
What will really happen this week at the USCCB meeting?
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14287
I hope the bishops have learned from past mistakes, though somehow I doubt it. Sweeping bad things under the rug and hoping they go away only causes tragedy. They need to stand up, be brave be vocal and lead the flock even if it isn’t the popular or most diplomatic thing to do.
Dear Vivian
Do you sense that USA Catholics – who are 100% in union with the Pope are mentally exhausted from the outcome of the elections?
I agree with you that I was not clear in my posted message and it could have given the implication that The Pope was congratulating him (in that) he supports Barak Obama’s values. Quite the contrary.
Please accept my apology for not being able to explain what I was trying to communicate, Vivian. I am mentally drained.
Now is the time to move forward, move forward one step at a time, shining the Light in a dark world. Now is the time to focus my energies on faith, hope and love.
I look forward to hearing more from Fr. Kuchinsky who shines the light of Christ most brilliantly.
God bless you.
Vivian,
Following your logic, Jesus would still be waiting for us to go to him to ask for grace. Silly of Him to come down to offer us salvation. I guess he got what he deserved, since a majority of those voting decided to kill him.
Also, if you don’t see how it was wise of the Pope to congratulate Mr Obama, you should perhaps find out, instead of insinuating that you are wiser than him.
While I oppose Mt Obama’s positions and would not have voted for him if I were an American, I recommend that we remain, most of all, faithful to our Catholic faith, which encourages us to follow the Holy Father and to extend to every person Jesus’ grace through conversion.
Roberto
Before you try to insinuate that some how because I think it is lame for the true Vicar of Christ to be reaching out to Obama, which I think sends the wrong example for all Catholics (if he wants to convert him maybe the Pope should have asked Cardinal George of Chicage some 2 years ago when Obama announced he was running to start to reach out to him). Additionally, why should Obama convert when he has Catholic priests like Phleger going to Obama church with the Rev Wright praising Obama and making anti white jokes!
I think the Pope needs to reign in the Father Phelgers, the Fr Reeses and the Greely’s and not worry about little old me
To those who have been criticizing the Holy Father the Pope for congratulating President-elect Obama: being unfailingly serene, gracious, and tactful is part of the Pope’s job description, especially in his role as Visible Head of a Church made up of millions of Americans and hundreds of millions of others worldwide.
This is not new. This is diplomacy; this is civilized behavior; this is how grown-ups with very responsible jobs behave.
A very wise and cultivated lady once had her heart set on leaving as her legacy future generations of wise and cultivated descendants. One day her only son, Donald, came home with his new bride. New Bride was a tramp and a gold-digger; they had eloped, but there Donald and Bride stood in the doorway of the family home, grinning at Donald’s mother.
Donald’s mother could see at a glance that New Bride – her daughter-in-law – was a real piece of work. But she decided on the spot to keep her eye on her long-term goal and make the best of it.
Which of the following responses is more likely to get Donald’s mother to her ultimate goal of charming and cultivated grandchildren and great-grandchildren . . . ? (even after she herself is dead and buried) . . . ?
POSSIBLE RESPONSE #1:
“Donald, I always knew you were an idiot and a loser, but I had no idea you would bring a piece of trash like this into our home. Lady, if you think you are welcome in this family, you are out of your ever-loving mind! And, Donald, if you don’t divorce her yesterday, you are cut off, cut off without a penny!”
POSSIBLE RESPONSE #2:
“Donald, I wish you had let us know before – to have surprised us like this! (to Bride) How do you do, my dear, it’s a pleasure to meet you. I hope you and my son will be very happy. Won’t you come in and sit down and tell us all about your plans?”
Again, the long-range goal is terrific great-grandchildren. Which response is going to get those?
~~~~
The Vatican is a “State” and the leaders of states normally congratulate incoming elected officials. The key lies in the word “elected.” Congratulating Obama on his win is as much congratulating America on another bloodless and democratic transfer of power. This is no mean accomplishment… Generation after generation, transferring power to a group with whom you have significant disputes… This speaks exceedingly well of us and the Holy Father SHOULD congratulate the winner, even as he prays for Obama and our Legislature and us.
However, the critiques of our bishops and even Pope for failing to lead and failing to articulate the Truth in this modern age. The fact remains that the popular media and the Democratic Party had greater effect on the majority of self-proclaimed Catholics than did the Church.
Some of the posters here act like it is sinful and wrong to hold Church leaders accountable. But, we are no cult. We are no worshipers of men. We are Christians. It is right and proper to hold them accountable, as we hold one another accountable, for failing to instruct and lead.
If, as the original post suggested, the council of bishops “dodged” an issue, then it is no wrong to call them to task for it. Indeed, the issues that brought our faith most into discredit were caused particularly by the failing of our very human leadership. Who of us would NOT go back to the 1970s and 80s if we could and push the Bishops to substantively address child abuse?
So, please stop acting like every challenge to the Church Temporal is an assault on faith. It is not. Our respect, love, and desire to serve the Church is not in question. Our willingness to hold our fellow human beings accountable to the promises they have made and the duties they have assumed reflects more the actions of a Christ that chastised the Apostles for sleeping in the garden and drove the money changes from the Temple than you imagine.
G Veg
Possibly you should learn your history
The Vatican is not a State but a country, a country forced into such after its land was confiscated in 1870 annexed by the socialist/fascists and then once and for all cornered by Mussolini into signing the Lateran Treaty of 1929. Pius XI and the earlier Popes were basically captive there for 50 years or so until this treaty was signed.
The church has always belived in a Monarchy, with Christ as its visible king. Ever hear or pray for the “Kingship of Christ”, or read Quas Primas? Starting with Paul VI when he addressed the UN and gave up his papal tiarra, did the Pope or Vicar of Christ, and with the platform of Ecumenism which was in direct contradiction to Mortalium Animos and all past teachings did the Vicar of Christ ever feel the need to be one with the Modern world or its leaders, many if not most of whom first with Godless fascism/Nazi/Communism culminating with the election of quasi socialist Obama, have all but placed God let alone the Catholic Church in a corner
So if you want to blame the 1970’s and 1980’s with Homosexuality within the priesthoood, all statistics clearly show that this was a clear phenomenon of the church in the 1950’s up until today desiring a very liberal priesthood to implement the modernistic ideals it had forthcoming, and opened its doors to homosexuals, and had nothing at all to do with a “closed church” which as we know Pope John XXIII proclaimed in his opening speech of Vatican II was throwing open the windows of the church for all to see in!
So go back and read a bit on the history of the Vatican and how it came to be, as one needs to learn their history for fear of repeating it
http://spcp.prf.cuni.cz/dokument/lateran.htm
John,
Meaning no disrespect, the context within which I used the word “State” was exactly correct… this is to say that a State is a “political system of a body of people who are politically organized” (Blacks Law Dictionary)- though, in the United States, it is routinely given a more narrow definition. The expression “Head of State” comes from this broader definition. In this sense, my use was exactly correct.
I appreciate the reminder of Church history though. It has been some time since I worked through the texts in my library.
W/r to homosexuality in the Church, I hadn’t been specifically referring to this, though it is my personal belief that the vulgarity and obscenity of society as a whole crept into the Church during the sexual revolution. I have no particular expertise to assess the connection, if indeed there is one, between a generalized addiction to sexual perversity and child abuse. It strikes me though that such a connection may exist and that, since the majority of the suits brought against components of the Church allege indecent acts during the 1970s and 1980s.
My point was less subtle though.
The Church is no democracy, nor would I want it to be. Since Christ’s will flows through the Hierarchy and down to us on questions of faith and morals, it is right and proper for us to accept the Church’s teachings without seeking to control them. However, the Church is also a very “human” institution in that we are His instruments, flawed though we are, and we often let our will, our understanding, our fears cloud His guidance and corrupt His plans.
This very human inclination is as much shared by our clergy as by our lay people. So, since we are no cult, that is to say a group of persons who set aside reason to follow the rule of men who claim divine knowledge, we have an obligation to participate in the running of the Church Temporal. This means paying attention to the actions of our church, participating in lay leadership of temporal institutions, and calling our leaders out on poor judgment.
Had we done so in the 1970s and 1980s, there would be fewer suits against the Church now.
So, yes, we SHOULD follow the teachings of the Church without substituting our judgment for Hers. However, the decision to make a public hooplah about elected officials who claim the robes of the Catholic while publicly rejecting the Church’s teaching is a human one and we have a duty to call the Hierarchy to task if it fails to proclaim the Truth out of fear of fiscal consequences.
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