So what if minor girls can’t buy emergency contraceptives without a prescription?
Their rapists can.
When last week the FDA authorized over-the-counter access of ECs to women 18 and older, it also authorized over-the-counter access to men 18 and older.
Why would men buy ECs?
Ask them in Thailand, where ECs have been marketed for 20 years. In Thailand, ECs are advertised in men’s magazines….
I don’t know whether acting FDA Commissioner Andrew von Eschenbach was caving to or cavorting with radical feminists when making his decision, but it was irresponsible and dangerous.
Have you ever heard of the FDA making the high dose of any drug available on the store shelf while locking the lower dose in the pharmacy?
Here’s the magnitude of difference between prescription-only birth control pills and now nonprescription ECs: Planned Parenthood recommends taking 40 Ovrette brand birth control pills at one time to equal the dosage of the EC….
51 comments
Chilling
The Curt Jester has another article on Plan B. Check out this portion:So what if minor girls can’t b …
The scary part is, what will the men do with the pill?
Will they slip it to an unsuspecting woman?
“Plan B” is called the pedophile pill in some countries. Men have sex with minor girls and then give them a pill to take afterward. Young girls get this pill regularly, and who knows what the higher dose might do to their developing bodies?
An awful lot of women who took the ‘first generation’ of birth control pills are now getting breast cancer at alarming rates. Those first pills had very high doses of estrogen. High doses of estrogen cause changes in breast tissue that become cancerous later.
Wonder if a generation of young American girls, preyed upon by older men, may be lost to cancer and STDs (which are becoming antibiotic resistant) thanks to this lovely little decision?
I think it’s a bit hypocritical to all of a sudden become outraged at the ease with which older men can obtain sexual access to very young girls now that Plan B is OTC (with restrictions) in the US.
Your outrage is looooong overdue if you’re REALLY concerned about the girls in those countries. Also, your outrage is misplaced. It’s not Plan B’s fault that there are pedophiles, or older men who prey on younger or more vulnerable women. It’s the men’s fault. It is the fault of the governments that look the other way. It’s the fault of the parents who sell their female children into that kind of situation. It’s the fault of US authorities who know single, older men aren’t exactly flocking to Thailand for the fabulous climate. It’s all the people who sort of know there’s something a little off about so-and-so, but don’t want to speak up and say anything.
Plan B doesn’t cause men to have an appetite for underage girls or prey on vulnerable women. Men who have deviant desires will express them sooner or later. Besides, Plan B isn’t much of an issue for men who like little girls.
Men aren’t all of a sudden going to start molesting their teenage, female relatives just because Plan B is available OTC, either. I don’t think fear of pregnancy is the only thing holding most men back from raping their daughters and nieces.
Plan B does not contain ANY estrogen. Really. Know your facts before you shoot off from the mouth. Not to mention the fact that current BC pills contain very little estrogen and study after study after study has proven that there is no increased risk of breast cancer with dosages at these levels. Not that that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, either.
And what, in God’s name, has Plan B got to do with STDs becoming more resistant to anti-biotics? If you want to go off on the misuse and overuse of anti-biotics and the problems that gives rise to, fine, I’ll back you 100%. But the fact that STDs, like MANY infections, have become resistant to certain anti-biotics has NOTHING to do with Plan B.
Bottom line: child abuse and rape (of both children and adults) have existed since the dawn of time. Plan B isn’t going to turn all men everywhere into a pack of rapists who prey on underage girls. Really. Grow up.
Plan B is limited for OTC sales to legal adults. Like, um, liquor. Where’s your outrage there? I mean, OH MY GOD, those dirty old men will buy liquor and ply the young girls (and boys) with it and rape them!! Which is actually a much more realistic scenario…
If you are opposed to Plan B, don’t buy it. For someone who isn’t having sex outside marriage and who welcomes every child God blesses them with, including children who are the product of rape (if you were female and should you be raped, of course), Plan B doesn’t impact your life at all.
Or are you desperately trying to supress some sick tendency that Plan B threatens to unleash…?
And I just have to add that it’s actually pretty sick that you’re not nearly so concerned about all these young girls being raped as you are that their rapists will be able to find away around impregnating them in the process. Really. That’s more than disturbing.
N,
?????
“It’s all the people who sort of know there’s something a little off about so-and-so, but don’t want to speak up and say anything.”
That’s an extremely interesting statement, N.
So, you are suggesting, that for the folks in whom there is no actual evidence of abuse or mistreatment of others, but you have determined are “a little off” should be dealt with. What do you do, exactly, N.? Post posters? Call for a town hall meeting to discuss what is to be done about the “off-ishness” of Mr. or Ms. So and so?
What if, based on no evidence of abuse or mistreatment on your part, that you are determined to be “a little off?” Is that the price you are willing to pay for a safer society?
Oh, Theresa…really. You know exactly what I’m talking about. In the context of this subject and this post and the sex trade in other countries (and this one), there are people who are “off” (exhibiting non-criminal yet bizarrely inappropriate behavior) in this area. Don’t try to change the subject and divert attention from the fact that there are men out there (and in this combox and who run this blog) who are more upset that certain types of sexually abusive men will be able to prevent their victims from being impregnanted against their will than they are that the girls are being raped in the first place.
That’s what I mean by “off”.
If you go to any of the conservative Catholic blogs, THIS is the argument against Plan B. None of these blogs have ever expressed any outrage about the men who sexually abuse girls and women, but now that Plan B is OTC, we must stop it because these men can prevent the girls from becoming pregnant.
How sick is that?
No outrage against condoms, no outrage against alcohol, which is OFTEN used by men who prey on teenagers, but, OH MY GOD, Plan B must be stopped!
It’s such a phony, hypocritical bunch of bull, not to mention the dumbest argument against anything ever in the entire history of the planet.
But then, consider the source… /rolleyes
N:
The best argument against “Plan B” is that it is a good part of the time and abortifacient, preventing the implantation of an embryo which is nothing less than a tiny human being, and all human beings — you, your friends and family, the writers of this blog, the responders to this blog, rapists, pedophiles, rape victims and pedophilia victims — all human beings great and small have inherent dignity and the “rights which we hold self-evident of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, in case you forgot.
Your rhetorical technique, by the way, is called a “straw man argument” in which you are refuting a caricatured or extreme version of someone’s argument, rather than the actual argument he has made.
No. I’m refuting EXACTLY the attitude expressed here. No strawman.
BTW, the likelihood of Plan B being abortifaceant is pretty much nil. That’s a non-starter.
But, getting back to THIS argument, that wasn’t the argument. The argument was that Plan B is bad because rapists would be able to prevent their victims from becoming pregnant.
Funny how I’ve NEVER seen this argument presented for condoms.
But even forgetting the bizarre mindset behind arguing against Plan B because it might prevent rape victims from being forcibly impregnanted, how stupid is thinking that, given the choice between a much cheaper method of pregnancy prevention (because I’m SURE the pregnancy deal is UPPERMOST in your average rapist’s mind…), one that remains in the rapist’s control, one that doesn’t require any action on the part of the victim, and one that is pretty darned expensive (about $30 a pop, I believe), that requires a freaking ID and an interview with a pharmacist at the counter, and will require some level of cooperation on the part of the victim and a hell of a lot of luck timing-wise, the rapist is gonna pick the second method…?
Please.
This argument is beyond stupid, it’s meant to be inflammatory, and it has nothing to do with anything.
If you think the sex trade in other countries sucks, fly over there and do something about it. But whining about Plan B going OTC for adults in the USA isn’t even remotely connected to fighting the sex trade in other countries. Not even close. This is just another example of conservative Catholic pro-lifers liking to make a big, whiny, attention-seeking noise about something but never really doing anything pro-active about the things they’re SUPPOSEDLY so outraged over.
N:
I have read the posts here and I believe you have attacked those who have posted here unfairly. What I read are accounts of misuse of Plan B in other countries (which I didn’t know about BTW, and thank you guys for the info) and probably what’s in store for society in America, since approval of OTC Plan B is just another twist in the downward spiral of American society. Come on, you don’t really think that we abhor rape, incest, and pedophilia and care about the victims only now that Plan B has been approved. That would be, what is your word, “stupid”? I think we all here recognize that your rant is the usual attack and misdirection strategy, but you owe the folks here an apology for your extremely rude behavior. As for Catholic pro-lifers doing nothing but making a “big, whiny, attention-seeking noise about something but never really doing anything proactive” about the things we’re supposedly so outraged over, I guess you’re ignorant of Priests for Life or the American Life League. I guess you’ve never seen Catholics praying the rosary outside an abortion clinic, or the thousands and thousands of marchers at the local and national March for Life. I guess you don’t know about the letters we’ve written or the phone calls we’ve made to our Senators and Representatives making our views known on the issues we care about. But the cold, hard fact is we have to work within the law to change anything, and now death is the law of the land. Let me turn this around on you–China and other countries have been aborting female babies for years to get the sons they want under the only child law. This has been going on without a peep from the Feminazis. Why? Because to protest this murder of female children would be to protest the almighty cult of abortion–something that simply cannot be done and still be a card-carrying member of the Culture of Death. You don’t believe what we believe, fine–I’m happy for you. But your rant is just another example of Opposing Views–Most Especially Pro-Life Views– Must Not Be Tolerated and Those That Express Them Must Be Crushed Immediately. You grow up.
No, Amy, YOU grow up. The premise here is that Plan B is bad because rapists can buy it for their victims, which is a retarded argument.
That there is a sex trade in Thailand and that Plan B is used by the people who are involved in it is terrible. But it has nothing to do with Plan B.
It has to do with evil men and evil parents and evil governments (including ours, which looks the other way and spends the taxpayer’s money on death and destruction in the Middle East rather than in helping these girls or fighting poverty and hunger, etc., etc., etc.).
The sex trade has been around forever. Plan B did not start the sex trade.
The same people who use Plan B for nefarious reasons use liquor for nefarious reasons, use their cars, use housing, blahblahblah. That some asshole somewhere is using something for a nefarious reason is not a reason to ban the thing. It’s a reason to lock up the bastard forever, is all. But, no, too many people would lose money if we stopped the sex vacation trade between Thailand and the US, so no one will REALLY do anything about it. And the Catholics will whine and cry and whinge about Plan B, and NOTHING will change. The girls will still be sold into these situations, American men will still go over there to have sex with eight year olds, and God is in his heaven puking at the lot of you and your idiocy and selfishness and complete lack of any common sense whatsoever.
And the notion that some rapist somewhere is going to let a pharmacist record his ID before he goes out to rape a girl is just ludicrous. Especially when he can anonymously buy a freaking case of condoms for what he’d pay for one dose of Plan B.
This post was meant to create hysteria over nothing. Plan B going OTC to adults in the US is not even remotely related to the fact that American adults can legally hop on a plane and molest and rape little girls without worrying about being caught.
Like I said, where’s the outrage over alcohol, which is almost always a factor in situations where adults prey on teens? Where’s the outrage over condoms, which are infinitely more likely to be used in the unlikely situation where a rapist worries about getting his victim pregnant? Where’s the outrage against the airlines that shuttle these men back and forth on these sleazy sex vacations?
Nope. Not a single bloody post about any of THAT on a single Catholic blog. Just a lot of whining about Plan B, which does NOT cause abortions, but merely suppresses ovulation.
The real hypocrisy? I’ve been around long enough to know that if some oh-so-superior Catholic woman like YOU, Amy, was raped, you’d be breaking down doors to get to Plan B. All while you were denying it to someone else.
Oh, and I just LOVE the assumption that I’m a feminazi and that I’m pro-abortion. No, dearie. Not. I think modern-day feminists and conservative Catholics have more in common than they’d like to admit. You’re both intensely selfish, narcissistic crowds who don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone else’s rights and autonomy, but want to impose your belief systems on everyone against their will.
This post is about Plan B, not the sex trade in Thailand or abortion in China, or any other red herring you want to drag in here. It is not about a “view” on Plan B. It’s about LYING about Plan B and setting up some freakishly retarded, hysterical scenario that Plan B going OTC will supposedly cause.
The implication is that selling Plan B OTC to legal adults is going to somehow unleash hoardes of rapists and molestors and turn fathers into daughter-rapers and turn heretofore decent men into pedophiles. This is hysteria-mongering, nothing more, nothing less.
So get over yourself, dearie, and get a clue.
And I’m sure all those letters you’re writing and rosaries you’re saying are putting tons of food on tons of tables and paying tons of medical bills.
Letters and rosaries come cheap. Action might cost you something more than a thirty-nine cent stamp, eh?
The day you personally pick up some girl’s medical bills, take her in, and support her while she has her baby, all without coercion or pressure to convert to your religion or “give” her baby away, is the day you have any credibility at all.
Well, thank goodness, because my family is doing just that right now.
You know, this is simply one side of an argument that in no way is meant to detract from the horror of rape, etc.
No. It’s INTENTION is to detract from the female victims of rape.
The entire premise of the half-assed opinion expressed here is that Plan B is bad because it will prevent rapists from violently impregnating their victims.
It wasn’t until Plan B came on the scene that any of these conservative Catholic bloggers got all upset about men who abuse underage girls, whether they do it at home with their female relatives, or in their classrooms, or by jumping them in dark parking garages, or by travelling to a country that allows open sex trade involving underage girls.
You want to stop women from having an opportunity to prevent ovulation after they’ve been raped because, OH MY GOD, men can buy Plan B in Thailand. And because, in the dim recesses of your addled minds, you honestly think that Plan B is going to promote rape, even though condoms have been around for ages. Yes. That’s it. All these rapists and molestors have been holding back, waiting for something as expensive, inconvenient, and potentially incriminating as OTC Plan B for adults only to come on the scene. Even though they could easily have picked up a box of condoms for a few dollars at the local 7-Eleven. Yes. I can’t IMAGINE why the FDA didn’t catch on to this…really…what could they have been thinking…?
Plan B is does not cause abortion nor does it prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. It merely prevents ovulation. But GOD FORBID a rapist should be denied the opportunity to further violate a woman’s body, right? GOD FORBID the Catholic Church should be denied the opportunity of forcing a woman to ovulate so that a rapist’s sperm doesn’t get a chance to fertilize her eggs, eh?
This argument is meant to get everyone caught up in some braindead, moronic frenzy in order to prevent legal sales of a safe treatment that might just prevent the Catholic Church from punishing women for being raped, because God knows they all asked for it anyway, the dirty whores, so they deserve to be impregnated by their rapists and have their lives and bodies torn apart.
The argument behind this is all about treating women like objects and like second-class citizens, and the fact that these so-called “men” are hiding behind pretending to care about little girls being abused in another country and under circumstances that don’t exist here is obscene.
Please don’t feed the troll.
Peace,
–Peter
Yes, Peter, because it’s ALWAYS so easy to fall back on that kind of idiocy after your dumbass argument has been exposed for the retarded crap it is.
Right.
Not ONE single person has been able to refute my argument that the position presented here – that Plan B going OTC to legal adults is bad because rapists will buy it for their victims – is just plain ridiculous, so you all bring up all these red herrings and make comments about trolls instead.
Okay.
Here’s a challenge: support the argument that Plan B going OTC is bad because rapists will buy it for their victims, in spite of the fact that they’ve ALWAYS had a cheaper, more convenient and less traceable method of pregnancy prevention available to them for decades (and rarely use it, anyway…). Go ahead. Support it.
You honest-to-God think this is even a remotely realistic scenario? Fine. Set it up for me. Show me how this is practical and how it will a real use for Plan B.
Thailand doesn’t count. In Thailand, the sex trade is a legit business, and Plan B is used to protect business investments. The use of Plan B in the sex trade in Thailand is NOT connected to Plan B going OTC in the US.
Also, support your position that anything that could conceivabley be used for bad purposes should be banned. If Plan B is bad and should be banned from OTC sales to legal adults because adults might use it to harm children, then how can you support OTC liquor sales to legal adults when alcohol has been proven over and over again to be a factor in sex abuse cases?
Go ahead – make your rational argument for banning OTC sale of Plan B in that context.
What “lad mags” advertise
Well, if the photos in lad mags are chosen to titillate, and the men respond for selfish, lustful reasons, then they would need to have access to something to eliminate the negative side effects, one being a newly conceived child. Curt Jester points us…
Wow. A nerve has been hit. That could be a good thing. I’m a liberal, although one without an ‘ism’ except Catholicism. I’m also an incest victim, though luckily a 4 yr old can’t be impregnated, especially by a woman, so Plan B would never have been an option. These things I can say from experience (marital as well as childhood): most rape occurs within families, most rapists ARE cowards, and they often (as N mentioned) drink a lot. They are not likely to have a condom available when the impulse to rape overwhelms them, but somewhere in their foggy heads, Plan B may occur to them as just the right coverup. So, in addition to the fact that Plan B is fatal to our smallest brothers and sisters and dangerous to women, I agree that it might well add a dimension of “safety” for the would-be molester or even tip many scales toward one-night-stands that might never occur otherwise.
As so many outbursts are seen with clarity “the morning after” I hope N will rethink her/his words when the emotion subsides…I’m answering this late, N, so you may not get it. But I’m praying for you, just the same. Neither Plan B nor abortion will “fix” our inhumanity, they’ll just carry us farther down the road of insanity.
Oh, for God’s sake.
So just because a tiny percentage of a tiny subset of the population might potentially use something for nefarious purposes, we should ban it altogether…?
People die from taking aspirin. Where’s your outrage that it’s sold OTC to anyone?
Where’s your outrage over alcohol? It’s used in molestation, it kills when people drink and drive (as do cars…), it poisons people. Why don’t you fight selling that?
Oh, and another mind-numbingly stupid Catholic who assumes I’m pro-abortion…because it’s all about assuming and categorizing, right?
Plan B was not designed to “fix” our humanity. It was designed to prevent ovulation and give women a second shot at avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. If you, for whatever reasons, would never use it, DON’T. Really simple. Don’t use it. No one will force you to.
It also serves a purpose in giving rape victims some peace of mind and some chance at preventing a violently forced pregnancy.
But that’s the REAL problem here, isn’t it? Because God forbid we should tamper with a rapist’s right to procreate with whomever he drags off the street at knife point, eh?
It is not YOUR job to make decisions for other people’s lives. It is not YOUR job to force people to live YOUR beliefs against their will.
If you don’t want to use Plan B, don’t buy it. But making up nonsensical bull just to try to ban other people from using it is really, really demented and sick and evil.
You’re essentially a pack of rapists yourselves.
But then, rape is the eight sacrament of the Catholic Church, especially child rape. So this doesn’t surprise me.
Contraception doesn’t stop rape. Abortion doesn’t stop rape. Children resulting from rape didn’t cause the rape. Murder and tolerance of sin do not stop or fix sin. Sin is conquered through the love, the forgiveness, the mercy, the death and the resurrection, the Body and Blood of Jesus Chirst. Let us pray. Talking sure isn’t doing us any good.
Right, but let’s PRETEND we care about rape victims in order to get rid of Plan B, the thing that doesn’t cause rape or stop rape, but might actually HELP rape victims, eh?
Bad people cause rape. Period. Work half as hard at getting rid of bad people as you all do trying to cram your idiocy down other people’s throats, or as you do sticking your nose into other people’s bedrooms, and you might actually accomplish something.
And prayer doesn’t stop rape, either. Tell that to the millions of rape victims who begged God to stop their fathers or neighbors or whoever from molesting and raping them and were met with cold, dead silence, sweetie.
Plan B prevents OVULATION. It is truly, truly sick and evil to insist that a woman is morally obligated to give her rapist an opportunity to procreate using her body against her will. To refuse to allow a rape victim the opportunity to prevent OVULATION means you WANT to violate her, too. In other words, Joanne, you’re a rapist, too. And hiding behind some poor little girls in Thailand, who no doubt gave up on God after they realized he’d never bothered with them for a minute, isn’t going to fool anyone.
N:
I prayed for you this morning. I prayed that you get help for this bitterness and rage that you have inside you. It you don’t get help for it, it will eat you alive.
Don’t bother to flame me, because I won’t visit this topic combox again. Know also that your attacks against us and the Church are nothing new. We’ve heard all of this and much worse before. Christ told us we would 2,000 years ago.
Just know that I will be praying for you every day.
*snicker*
Okay, dear. You do that. At least it will keep you off the streets and out of other people’s business.
“Bitterness and rage”? “Eat me alive”? Oh, honey, you really do have to stop watching so much Oprah…
But you keep up those prayers, sweetie. You do that. Because that doesn’t cost you a dime, eh? And you can pretend to be all holy and about all good, holy things without having to miss your soap operas and talk shows or give up your HSN shopping money.
It’s not bitterness, little girl. It’s frustration at the ignorance and lies being spread here. Plan B does not cause abortions. Plan B does not have one iota of estrogen in it. Plan B is not going to cause rape, nor is the fact that maybe, somewhere, some sexually abusive guy might use it a reason to ban it altogether. You are a complete hypocrite if this is the basis of your argument unless you also actively and publicly work towards banning alcohol and condoms, both of which are infinitely more likely to be used in sexually abusive situations, both of which are infinitely more affordable, and both of which can be purchased fairly anonymously.
Call it what you will, hon. You still haven’t risen to the challenge where you support the half-baked, moronic argument against Plan B presented here.
Bottom line? This is all just part of the Catholic Church’s proven anti-women agenda. We get that the poncing, faggy, effete little men of the church and the self-loathing, bloated, disgusting, sexually repulsive women who marry them hate real women. We get it. We don’t care. Until you start trying to shove your hateful, sick, twisted, abusive, rape-agenda down other people’s throats.
And don’t lie. We all know you’ll be back to read this combox.
mercy
Really. People this stupid need all the help they can get.
N,
You come onto a catholic website knocking the Catholic church’s ancient and consistent teaching on birth control and especially abortafacient birth control. OK, that is your opinion. If you wish to hate us and name call and take the oh-so-enligtened position that us poor faithful Catholics are a bunch of superstitious knuckle dragging troglodytes barely able to think in any coherent manner; then do so with impunity. But I tell you something sweetheart, if you think you’re going to sass God and rip Him a new one then you have another thing coming. As usual with libertines, when you have no valid philosophical or logical basis, then ad hominum attacks become the couse of the day. The bottom line is you seemingly have little regard for the unborn for whatever reason and that is sad. The church isn’t anti-woman…it’s pro-responsibility. Before you lauch into the requesite attacks on the sex scandals, who gets ordained, and so forth and so on…I didn’t say the human element of the Church is perfect. But it’s teachings come from something a little more logical than your local NARAL Pro-choice PLanned Parenthood propaganda payed for by industries that have an obsene amount of monry to drive their view.
We need to grow up? Hmmmmm. I can’t wait to see your lack of logic and your words dripping with disdain in your next post. Regardless of those words…you’re wrong. IN the end you’ll stand before God (whom I wonder if you conveniently don’t believe in) and have to answer…whether you like it or not.
I don’t care what your personal beliefs on BC are. Key word: personal.
When you take your personal beliefs and use them as a directive to misrepresent something you personally don’t believe you should use in order to try to prevent other people from having access to that thing, then, yeah, I have a big problem.
If you want to try to make a more intelligent argument than the idiocy that’s already been presented, give it a try and maybe I’ll listen. But using the sex trade in Thailand or claiming that Plan B is made of estrogen or that Plan B is adding to the fact that many diseases are becoming resistant to anti-biotics or that Plan B is somehow responsible for rape is the biggest, most dishonest load of horseshit I’ve seen in a long time.
I couldn’t care less who you ordain as whatever you want to ordain them as. Do I care about the sex scandals? Of course I care when children have been systematically abused for decades while an organization that represents itself as having the “fullness of the Truth” when it comes to all things “God” knowingly protected and aided the abusers. But that sad, sorry, sick situation isn’t really the topic here, is it?
My beliefs and your beliefs are completely irrelevant when it comes to what the FDA passes and why. No one here has presented a legitimate, thoughtful, truthful, fact-based argument against OTC sales of Plan B for legal adults.
If you don’t believe it is moral for you to use Plan B, then don’t use it. THAT’S “pro-responsibility”. Trying to get rid of everything your personal belief system says you can’t use just so you won’t be tempted by it is NOT pro-responsibility. It’s whiny, babyish, lazy and weak-minded.
If you want to use your personal God-beliefs to make law, then prove God exists beyond a shadow of a doubt and prove that this God actually is all the things you say he is. Until then, live your beliefs and let other people live theirs.
At the very least, stop telling lies and twisting facts in your pathetic attempt to force other people to live YOUR beliefs.
“Please don’t feed the troll”
N is not a troll.
N is something very much other than a troll.
Or its mouthpiece.
Oh…and this from the crowd that’s going on about how I’m going to have to stand before God and justify my words and deeds…?
You gotta be kidding…
Again, defend your words. Put together a lucid argument for removing Plan B from the market because men in Thailand might be using it as part of their nefarious actions. Tell me why preventing Plan B from being sold OTC to legal adults in the US is bad because somewhere, someone MAY use it for nefarious reasons. And if THAT’S your justification for banning the OTC sales of Plan B in the US under the restrictions that have been placed on it, tell me how you can justify OTC sales of liquor to legal adults when liquor has been proven over and over and over again to be a MAJOR factor in preying on teens. In almost EVERY story of teen molestation cases, the perpetrator has plied the victim with alcohol. Yet no outrage from you guys, eh?
You can call me Satan or call me demonic, “angelic doctor” (neither of which, I suspect, you are), but once you’ve done it, you really don’t have much of a leg to stand on when you call me a troll or accuse me of ad hominems, etc.
And you will have to stand before God and tell him how you claimed that I was a demon or the mouthpiece of Satan.
But all that nonsense about God and justifying one’s words to him was all just a lot of hot air, right? Because you STILL couldn’t provide a rational argument supporting the banning of an item based on what a very tiny percentage of people MIGHT do one day.
Keep talkin’. Oh, please, keep talkin’. Because you prove with every word what a bunch of selfish, uncaring, anti-life, narcissistic morons you are.
N
very nasty, and again off point. But then you absolutely own this combox, so I guess you win…and while I make no real claim to being an angel, I am in fact a doctor, and by reading the package insert for Plan B, know that prevention of implantation of an embryo is a secondary effect of this medication, therefore making its action abortifacient and not contraceptive at least part of the time, and “part of the time” when it comes to human life matters very much indeed.
Sure. Any human life but a woman who’s just been raped, eh?
I don’t believe you’re a doctor at all. Doctors don’t go around diagnosing other human beings as demons or the mouthpiece of Satan. Sorry, lady, but you blew your phony internet persona with that load of nonsense.
And, actually, the odds of Plan B even preventing a fertilized egg to implant are negligable, if they even exist at all.
But, see, you care about all this fluffy, theoretical life, and don’t give a rat’s ass about real live women.
How typical. And that’s exactly the same mentality a rapist has – he doesn’t care about the woman, just HIS desires and sick needs and drives. Just like you don’t care about real live women, just YOUR religious beliefs and what you can buy for yourself in some afterlife.
There’s a special place in hell for people like you.
Logical fallacies in this last response:
paragraph 1:straw man
paragraph 2:straw man, ad hominem
paragraph 3:appeal to probability (negative form)
paragraph 4:straw man
paragraph 5:ad hominem tu quoque
paragraph 6:ad hominem circumstantial
paragraph 7:not really any kind of logic at all, but more of an insult, lol.
Oh and also, paragraph 2 has a “No True Scotsman” but logicians may quibble there.
That’s right…we solve the trauma of rape with a further trauma!!! Absolutely brilliant!!!! Why hasn’t the pyschological community jumped on that bandwagon? Poor stupid Catholics for not coming up with that gem!
Next, you obviously don’t believe in objective truth or absolute truth. Otherwise you couldn’t reduce a human life to matter of personal choice. You see my little buttercup, as Catholics we do believe in such things…in other words that some things are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil by their nature. Even with the evils in the Church..we call it just that…evil. For example the preying on our youth by some clergy is evil. We’re quite comfortable with calling it that. PLan B is intrisically evil because it seeks to stop the implantation of fertilized egg causing an abortion in some cases. It also absolves the person of the responsibility for engaging in sexual activity. Let’s face it, the majority of plan B will not be bought by rape and incest victims…the vast majority will be bought by women (or their male lovers) who wish to enjoy sex without any real commitment.
You bring up about rape. Fine. Where else in American jurisprudence do we kill an innocent bystander as a matter of law? No where. But we’ll kill an unborn child because of how it was conceived…so through no fault of its own we will put it to death. Hmmmmm. There’s justice for you. But I’m sure in your subjective ‘I make up the rules as I go along’ world you will find a way to rationalize it. LIberals always do.
Oh and take your own damned advice in your the closing of your diatribe to my last post. And take your hate-mongering name calling classless and pathetic act somewhere else. You get what give babe. See the world with fury and hate and that’s what you’ll get back!
Hey, “angelic doctor” (one shudders to think what sort of sicko chat rooms you frequent with THAT username…), since you think I’m Satan’s mouthpiece or a demon, I don’t have to play by your rules of logic. Can’t have it both ways, lady.
Again, not one single logical argument supporting banning Plan B based on what some people might do with it.
You still can’t do it.
You have all claimed I’m wrong, evil, this, that, blahblahblah, and not one single one of you has provided a clear, rational argument justifying the banning of the sale of a thing based on what some theoretical person might do with it in some theoretical situation, nor have you explained why it’s reasonable to allow the sale of other things even though they’ve been proven to be a factor in a large percentage of crimes.
C’mon. This is your premise. Can’t you defend it?
Gee…guess it was just a lot of pretend hand-wringing and whining after all.
Now, to that poor sad person who hasn’t quite mastered the English language yet…
I don’t care what you believe. Believe what you want, and practice it all you want.
If you don’t want to use Plan B or any other contraception, DON’T. What part of this don’t you get? That is your free choice. You, however, cannot tell me how I have to run my sexual life. You can have whatever opinion of it you like (even though you have absolutely no knowledge of it – not that a negligent little fact like that ever stopped a Catholic from jumping to all sorts of conclusions and passing judgment), but you can’t make me live my sexual life according to your personal religious beliefs. And you sure as hell can’t force me to carry a baby that is NOT mine and that I was forcibly impregnated with against my will just because of some theory you can’t prove.
If YOU want to carry your rapist’s baby, go ahead. I won’t stop you. But that’s the difference between you and me – I’m not going to force my beliefs down your throat and usurp your body to achieve my ends.
At least you finally get to the truth here – this was never about protecting the poor little girls in Thailand. That was just a pathetic, pandering load of garbage meant to evoke an emotional response. This is about punishing women who don’t share your sexual morality.
See, here’s the thing you dumbass Catholics don’t get. You can’t force people to live as Catholics do (or claim to live, although the reality is you all talk a big game and divorce and abort and contracept at the same rates everyone else does). You can’t force other people to make the same choices you would make based on your religious beliefs.
You are basing your desire to ban sales of Plan B on your personal religious beliefs, not on science, medicine, law, logic, etc. Personal beliefs are not the basis for deciding these things for an entire nation. They are reasons for each individual to decide whether or not to make certain choices, that’s all.
And you pack of whining little crybabies just don’t want other people to get to make choices your beliefs preclude you from, so you create all this nonsense and pretend you’re really all about caring and preventing little girls from being raped (which is bullshit, since you only cared that someone might give them Plan B after they were raped, not that they were raped in the first place – rape being a completely acceptable method of procreation according to you people, of course) just so you won’t ever be forced to REALLY live what you SAY you believe. Because, wahwahwah, that would be haaarrrdd.
Oh, and uh, FDS, or whatever your username is, I wasn’t the one who claimed Plan B caused rape, was made of estrogen, or was causing anti-biotic resistance, or caused abortions (this has been refuted – Plan B does not prevent implantation of a fertilized egg at all, and any “doctor” who is claiming otherwise is dead wrong). So I’m not the one lying or twisting facts.
Oh, and, FDS, this country kills “innocent bystanders” every single minute of every single day in every single corner of this world with it’s selfish, greedy, fucked up priorities and it’s immoral wars and it’s complete disregard for people living in states of poverty and hunger that shouldn’t exist in the 21st century.
Spare me the “innocent bystander” crap. It’s okay to bomb women and children to death in the bogus war we started in Iraq, but it’s not okay to take Plan B after you’ve been raped? Right.
Because they’re not white people, right, or Americans, or pretty, or “like us”, or Republicans, or Christians, or whatever. They’re just “those people”, so the bodies of their children don’t matter.
Irony? hello! N. you come on here telling us stupid catholics not to shove our beliefs down your throat by shoving your beliefs down our throat. You have ignored the medical proofs (listed on the product itself), you have rejected the philosophical, theological, pyschological, and logical evidences given here. You wish to remain in persistent ignorance and use emotional rubbish to substantiate your philosophically and logically empty premises. The only response you wish to hear is the all-knowing N is right and everyone else is wrong. Sorry babycakes…no deal! If I seem condescending in my posts I will treat you as a impudent child as long as you act like one. You are everyhting you claim to hate…a self righteous ignorant small minded know-it-all who cannot substantiate her arguements with anything stronger than fickle emotion. I would suggest you get help because this bitterness has its roots somewhere in the hurts of your past. You strike out like a wounded animal everytime someone tries to communicate at all. Your arguments lack substance, logic, coherence, and any display of compassion. It must be sad to be in your shoes…to filled with such venom and no will to get help.
No. See, _I_ am not the one calling to ban anything. I am not the one who wishes to remove Plan B from OTC sale to legal adults.
I don’t agree with you, I think your doctrines do more harm than good (I actually know this from experience), and I think you’re as wrong as wrong can be.
But I’m not looking to ban Catholicism or to force you to use contraception or to take Plan B if you’re raped.
So, no, _I’m_ not cramming my beliefs down _your_ throat.
_You_ want to ban Plan B because, in your own words, Plan B “will be bought by women (or their male lovers) who wish to enjoy sex without any real commitment.” As if it’s ANY of your business and as if YOU get to control OTHER people’s lives.
You people have presented ZERO evidence of ANY nature in support of your theory that Plan B will encourage rape and that it ought to be banned because theoretically some men might use it after they’ve molested an ovulating teenaged girl.
Now stop acting like an illiterate little asswipe before someone calls your mommy and tells her you’re not doing your dumbed down little homeschool lesson and you’re pestering the grownups on teh interweb again.
BTW – for someone who thinks I’m all these terrible, horrible, evil, sad, hateful things, you sure can’t get enough of me, can you? If I’m everything you say I am, what do your responding posts make you…?
This is why I know for a fact that Catholics are nothing but a bunch of nasty old windbags who talk a big game, but who don’t ever live what they say they believe. You prove it every time you turn around. It’s actually quite funny.
Again, an utter lack of logic. You obviously are unable to understand even the basics of higher thought. Your infantile tries at knocking my supposed lack of English grammar are laughable as your the underlying premises of your arguement. AS usual, when losing, you narrow the field to the feeling that Plan B will facilitate rape and molestation arguement present here. You have lost the larger arguement and now you open a new (or old) front.
The arguement that Plan B will facilitate rape and molestation is foolish (along the same line that capital punishment dissuades murder). Having worked in a prison, those who commit such crimes do not take such things to mind. There might be some pre-meditation; but more often than not it the heat of the moment. Plan B will not facilitate more rape and more molestation; they will happen regardless of whether Plan B is there or not.
The argumentation you use for support of BC is weak. It is oft used..the if you don’t support it then don’t do it…but allow us who do to do so. It is based in relativistic philosophy in which their are no consistent truths. In other words what is right me for me may not be right for you and what is wrong for you may not be wrong for me. This leads to moralistic anarchy. Don’t think so? Then replace BC with any other word carrying moral weight; say rape, murder, genocide, pedophilia, ephibophelia, theft, and so on. Do you not think a member of NAMBLA wouldn’t say ,”If you aren’t in favor of having sexual relationships with pre-pubescent minors, then don’t YOU do it, but don’t stop me because I do support it.”? This is one of the many reasons why liberalism falls logically and philosophically flat. It cannot be applied evenly or justly. If reality is what I make it then can there be any reality at all?
What you want is to be your own locus of authority. AS that is the case you have made your decisions based on your own reasoning and bias. Consequently you now want us to follow you. That is the reason you come here…to convert us. You are obviously frustrated that you have failed miserably in this conquest. You are wrong and no amount of emotive ranting will change that. If you want to engage in such things…knock yourself out. But you will have to stand before God (your not believeing in him doesn’t make him go away) and answer for your attitudes towards human sexuality, human life, and so on.
Is the Catholic Church imperfect? Yes, it is. Humanity has always had a disturbing way of warping the truth she has been given to fit its own ends. Until angels are baptized or ordained, we are stuck with this human element. This isn’t to whitewash our problems. It is to say that bitching about their being sinners, hypocrites, and fools in the church is like bitching that there are sick people in a hospital. I don’t go to church because I am perfect…I go because I am not. I am sure I will find a more stable foundation in the teachings of Christ than I will in the highly relativistic and shape shifting teachings of the world.
You have a lot hate in you. AS someone with a background in psychology, I can you that you will be eaten alive by this hate unless you find a way to rid yourself of it. Revenge (which is what you are engaging in) is not a solution in that it only perpetuates the hate. If you want to move beyond this then you need to get serious counseling now. I don’t care if you like to hear this; but hopefully it will sink in.
btw n…I used the wrong there (their) twice. Now you have something miniscule to dismiss the whole arguement upon. This is my last post in regards to you. There is no sense in speaking when the to whom you’re speaking in unwilling to hear. You’re a relitavist, Catholics are not. We come from completely diffent world veiws which are largely incompatable. So don’t think you have won by shouting us down. You’ve lost and you have no clue how deep your loss is.
You’re also spelling argument wrong.
You are quite deeply mentally ill, dear. Quite deeply.
The argument presented here WAS that Plan B will somehow aid rapists. I didn’t bring that argument to the table. The blog host did, and then others followed suit. And brought in a lot of seriously ignorant blather about estrogen and anti-biotics, as well, but those are easily dismissed because they’re, well, retarded, to put it bluntly.
I know that the argument that Plan B is somehow going to give rise to an increase in rape and incest is a ridiculously moronic argument. That was my entire point all along. Now you’re agreeing with me and claiming I was making the opposite argument…? Do you have a controlled substance problem…?
The argument that there is a place for prescribed and OTC sales of certain items is not weak. My argument is not “anything goes”, and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. That’s utter bullshit and you know it. My argument is that OTC sales of Plan B to legal adults is not problematic in the context given here, and that if you personally believe that using contraception is wrong, don’t do it. Using contraception and raping little boys are not the same thing. To equate them is deeply, deeply mentally disturbed. What kind of filthy, perverted, diseased mind would even think that way? Plan B and raping children do NOT carry the same moral weight whatsoever. Save that gobbledygook for your equally ignorant and brain-washed Catholic youth group pals, dude. You’re talking to a smarter, wiser adult here, not some twit at the local fourth tier community college.
I did not come here to “convert” you. Convert you to what…? I don’t follow any religion at all. I merely saw a ridiculous argument being presented and I refuted it. You can stay Catholic from now until doomsday and I couldn’t care less. Go ahead and don’t buy Plan B for the rest of your life. Why would I care? Do what you want and allow me to do the same. Live and let live.
If I have to stand before God, then that’s _my_ problem and not yours. That’s between me and God, not me and a bunch of Catholics. You are not God. I know that’s hard for a lot of Catholics to believe, but you’re not. Worry about yourself and the words and actions you’re going to have to justify to God and let me do the same.
Spare me the Oprah crap. Really. I’m not the one calling people the mouthpiece of Satan, or demonic. You STILL haven’t presented a legitimate argument for banning Plan B OTC sales to adults. The only argument you can come up with is that you personally believe contraception to be immoral. That’s not a reason based in anything other than personal woo-woo beliefs and half-baked opinions. You can use it all you want to base decisions on, but that sort of nonsense has no bearing whatsover in FDA decision making processes.
Okay. I get it. I’m an evil, hateful, demonic mouthpiece of Satan and I’m wrong and you’re right and you win and I lose and I’m going to hell and you’re on the express train to paradise and blahblahblahblahblahblahblah. Whatever. I don’t care what you think.
Bottom line is you still can’t justify the argument originally presented here, no matter how many times I ask. All you can do is resort to telling me I’m evil and going to hell. Well, whatever. How is hell supposed to sound like a threat if it’s the one place idiots like you WON’T be…?
Oh…and it’s “relativist”, “different”, “views”, and “compatible”. God only knows what else you misspelled. Your grammar, spelling and lack of reason give me a headache, so I can only stand so much of it at a time.
Man, I hope your parents can get a tuition refund…
*snicker*
My spelling and english leave a bit to be desired…but I’m not doing bad for a dyslexic.
I’ll be honest, it was fun jousting with you. But, I really need to do better things with my life than waste my e-breathe on the unconvertable. But just for old times’ sake…
My lack of education consist in an undergrad degree in Psychology and two Masters drgrees in counseling and theology. I graduated with honors on every level. Mind you, I did all this with dyslexia; as well as mastered 5 languages (including 3 alphabets). I’ll admit to not trying too terribly hard in arguing with you. There was no point. You and I are coming from wildly different philosophical vantage points. You are a classical philosophical liberal and I am a classical philosophical conservative. Thus I believe, as matter of principle, in absolute truth and you do not. I believe in the concept of objective truth and you do not. I have little problem with Catholicism and you do. The reason you keep saying that no one has presented a persuasive argument is that, in actuality, you do not believe there can be one. You, having used your own judgement and reason, have come to the conclusion that the Church’s teachings on human sexuality are wrong. You are not open to any other possibility. To use my full faculties would’ve been an utter waste of time. But I was going to have a joust at you for your hateful remarks directed at everyone else here.
Your disdain, which I reflected back to you, hurts others as much as I am sure it did you. You mentioned having some run-in with the church and her teachings is previous post. I am sure that run-in colors both your argumentation and your attitude.
I would suppose that we are equally dismissive of each other’s world view. You find me uneducated, superstitious, and pathetic. After all how could a reasonable person hold views contrary to yours? I find you effete, dismissive, angry, and condescending. We part ways disagreeing. So be it. But I am as rationally sure of my beliefs about human sexuality, birth control, and abortion as you believe you are in your beliefs.
As for your eternal fate…I don’t know that. But I’m guessing that neither do you.
Good bye and fare well.
an undergrad degree in Psychology and two Masters drgrees in counseling and theology. I graduated with honors on every level. Mind you, I did all this with dyslexia; as well as mastered 5 languages (including 3 alphabets)
Oooookay….
Apparently that would be five languages besides English…and if you’re going to tell such whoppers, you really ought to make them even slightly believable.
Isn’t lying a sin? A direct violation of the ten commandments? Uh-oh. Looks like you and I might be headed for the same barbecue, little boy…
Anyway, I thought your previous “last post” was going to be the last time you responded to me. Oops! Another lie. Naughty, naughty little FDS…
you’re like a bad habit I can’t put down. Technically it’s not lying, more weakness towards keeping one’s word. But let’s not quibble. For someone who has ‘love conquers all’ as her e-mail I seriously wonder what love you speak of. It is quite clear that it cannot be agape; perhaps philos, more likely eros.
I was hoping for something more astute than “liar, liar, pants on fire” in your response. A line from Dante came to mind when I read your last post, “Taci, maladetto lupo! Consuma dentro te con la tua rabbia.” But since you are so much smarter than I, you can obviously translate 12th century Italian for yourself.
You have ignored any entreaties to engage me in higher form of discourse. I have tried basic philosophy with you. Either you are unable or unwilling to respond in like manner. I have tried civility in the last post. this also failed. The best of your retort has been to play the language snob. How effete.
AS to my lack of intelligence by your estimation…well this too will pass. You have failed to make a disciple as I have as well. If I can kick smoking, I can kick this habit as well.
Omigod. You’re just freakin’ stoned out of your mind, aren’t you…?
Oh…yeah…that’s a “higer” form of discourse, alright…
And you really gotta get off this rage kick. _I’m_ not the one going totally loony over this…you’ve just admitted you’re the one consumed with this ridiculous blather. I guess you were referring to yourself.
Whatever.
I’m off to the beach for the day…
Maybe mommy will let you out to play again after she finishes cheating on your homeschool tests for you…
habit kicked…bye
Apparently not, LOL!
“support the argument that Plan B going OTC is bad because rapists will buy it for their victims, in spite of the fact that they’ve ALWAYS had a cheaper, more convenient and less traceable method of pregnancy prevention available to them for decades (and rarely use it, anyway…). Go ahead. Support it.”
First of all, Ms. Hysteria, no one is talking about rapists. The discussion is about pedophiles and their access to a drug that will help them cover up their crimes.
But I’ll “bite” anyway. The answer as to why selling Plan B to men is bad? Because Plan B is a high dose of hormones that serial abusers can slip to their unsuspecting victims and put the very lives of those victims at risk from the many side effects that are possible. Tubal pregnancy. Hemorrhage. Blot clots. Stroke.
That would be why.
Don’t you DARE to post here that you give one tiny hoot about women when you try, feeble as your effort may be, to support a decision to make high dose hormones available OTC, removing physician oversight from a drug that has life threatening side effects!
Plan B is bad medicine, and the FDA’s decision to make it available OTC compounds the dangers.
Women will suffer. Women will die. But you pro-aborts will sit back and gleefully rub your hands together and praise almighty freedom of choice while this happens. All the while, trying to claim a moral high ground of caring more about women than pro-lifers do.
May God have mercy on your soul.
Um, if there hasn’t been a rape of an ovulating female, what good would Plan B do anyone? Technically, we’re not talking about pedophilia at all, or non-intercourse abuse and molestation. ALL we’re talking about is rape, Miss Ignorant, and rapists have always had access to products that can either facilitate their crimes or help cover them up (alcohol and condoms, the sale of which are infinitely less regulated than the OTC sale of Plan B will be). As I said, where’s your outrage, all in the name of the poor victims?
All drugs, prescription and OTC, carry certain risks and potential side effects. The risks you mention for Plan B, are actually pretty damned rare. Again, your outrage is hypocritical, given that there are plenty of other OTC drugs that are potentially fatal and have been available to the general public for decades, and without age restriction, and available right smack in the aisle of the store as opposed to behind the pharmacy counter.
I am not a pro-abort. I SO love the way you religious types feel it’s perfectly CHRISTIAN to smack labels all over people just to make it easier for you to hate them and see them as less human. It is, actually, what you types do best. Denying the humanity of anyone who doesn’t kiss your bloated, piggy asses is the center of your religion.
Plan B is not bad medicine. It is not meant to replace tradtional birth control, hormonal or otherwise. When used properly, it is not an unsafe product. It has passed FDA scrutiny and is as safe or safer than any other product on the market, OTC or prescription-only.
If you want to protest ALL products that are potentially risky or lethal, fine. But don’t single out one just because of your personal religious beliefs and claim you’re really just all about everyone’s health. You’re not. Your message is loud and clear: you’re anti-birth control. As I said, that’s fine. What you personally choose along those lines is your decision, but when you start to poke your ignorant, judgmental nose into other people’s private lives, you’re waaaay out of line.
You STILL have not given me a single reason why the theory that someone might potentially abuse a product is a reason to ban it altogether. People drink and drive, abusers ply their victims with alcohol in order to weaken their resistance, batterers are fueled by alcohol, alcoholism has ravaged and destroyed families and individuals, alcohol is a contributing factor in a variety of cancers and other health issues…yet you have NO problem with OTC sales of alcohol to those 21 an over (and even that is so poorly regulated that the average American high school freshman can pretty much get access to alcohol whenever he or she pleases). If you’re really all about preventing a product because of the risk of abuse by sexual offenders, because of the risk of negative side-effects, and because it might lead to death, then where is your outrage over alcohol? More people will be sexually abused, made sick, killed, beaten, and have their lives wrecked because of alcohol than Plan B, and yet you don’t give a hot damn.
Please.
All this is about is punishing women. That’s all. It’s about you imposing your personal religious beliefs on other people. Essentially, you want a Catholic Taliban in place here in the US.
Be careful what you wish for, dear…be careful what you wish for…
Comments are closed.