In an article with a provocative title Why we choose to raise a heretic proves once again that people rail against a faith they don’t even know.
Our baby is full of original sin. That’s right. Not yet eight months old, our daughter has yet to be baptized and will therefore never grace the gates of heaven. Some will no doubt rebuke our decision to turn away from the Catholic church. That’s fine. But reading the latest edict issued by the Vatican, my husband and I feel further justified in our resolve to raise a heretic.
The rest of the article talks about the new 57-page document released by the Vatican that only reiterates Catholic teaching and why this spurred their decision. Her saying their un-baptized daughter could never enter Heaven is only the first of the mistakes. Just how is it that someone raised Catholic all of a sudden is upset by a document that only restates what has always been taught? I guess simply because they were not exposed to what the Church teaches or if so not very deeply. She goes on to talk about contraception, condoms, IVF, same-sex marriage and as usual in articles of this type never actually address the arguments used by the Church for these issues. Repeated over and over is the phrase "Call us liberal extremists, but we don’t believe it’s immoral…" to preface every issue without ever stating one reason for defense of these beliefs. The issue of the priestly abuse scandal is once again is brought up to prove somehow that this invalidates the truth.
Now of course in an article of this type you don’t expect a prolonged theological discussion of these issues, but it would be nice every once in a while if they would offer any defense at all other than stating their opposition.
31 comments
Too bad, she and her husband don’t realize that the Church’s beliefs are not established by what the majority may or may not believe. In other words, we are not Protestants. Just because “most Catholics” may not follow the Church’s teachings on contraception does not mean it is acceptable.
I feel bad for her daughter who will have to reap the consequences of her parents, I believe, selfish decision.
There are a modern caste that cannot express themselves except by opposition. That, somehow, they can be made a positive by expressing a stream of negatives. The World has offered them only nulls to attach to, and so that’s what they identify with.
I’m not sure it isn’t better for them to not raise their child Catholic if they are so opposed to Catholicism. I have a cousin whose mother made him go through CCD only to pick apart everything he was taught after each class. It may very well be better for the child to not be a Catholic at all than to be raised as an anti-Catholic Catholic. At least he will know he’s outside and may be able to see the Church a bit more clearly. It’s certainly more honest on the part of the parents.
Perhaps the most recent document sent the clear message that those teachings aren’t changing anytime soon. Since the pontificate of Paul VI a lot of liberals have held out the hope that the next pope would change everything. Eventually that has to crumble, though for some sooner or later.
Publius,
Hope springs eternal for these folks. They continue to live their lives hoping that the Vatican will finally bless their pet sin.
I hate to say for many years I thought that way too, and a big culprit was Vatican II. After all… If all of that were changed by the simple stroke of a pen, why not ABC, or homosexuality, or fornication, or…
“Let’s face it — with all of the dissension within the Catholic church, organized religion doesn’t seem quite so organized anymore.”
That made my jaw drop. She spends the entire article explaining why she and her husband dissent, and then sighs about the prevalence of dissention in the Church. But I think that underneath all of her griping is a cry for discipline.
All this non-statement of logic goes back to Scooby Doo cartoons.
I think most dissenters today expect everyone to agree with them because one day they expect Thelma to pull a mask off of the Pope … and it’ll turn out to be a raving mad criminal type.
This I like to call Scooby Snack morality. Most people today think it is as valid as MTV or the Today Show. Heck if it is not in a song or announced by Katie Couric, it cannot be true!
Just how is it that someone raised Catholic all of a sudden is upset by a document that only restates what has always been taught?
Two likely possibilities: they simply don’t like being reminded of the facts, or each such document is evidence that changes favorable to them are not coming as soon as they hoped.
My favorite example is an Anglo-Catholic Buddhanimist woman who was recently “ordained” and “consecrated” by a renegade Orthodox bishop (her words), joined RCIA, and finally dropped out when Ratzinger was elected pope. Apparently syncretism wasn’t going to be much fun under a chief bishop who takes heresy seriously (JPG apparently being too old and tired to make a difference).
I’m sorely embarrassed to admit this, but there was a time that I sounded just like this poor woman. Had I had a child, no doubt I would have done the same harm to him/her. I now know how incredibly lost/delusional/proud/sinful I was (well, I’m still sinful). I am absolutely convinced that the faithful who pray daily for sinners such as I to come home played a huge role in my return to the Church and the Truth that she teaches –that and Divine Mercy. So, folks, let’s not write this woman and her family off just yet and instead turn up the heat on our own prayers for her and her family that they be given the gift of faith.
I don’t know, but it seems to me that a lot of so-called dissenters are rather lazy. It’s more fashionable to say “we do this because we dissent and disagree” than it is to say “it’s too hard to apply the Commandments to our lives”. (Although there seems to be a bit of “everybody’s doing it, so why can’t we?” in the article.)
But I also see some hope in the story: Their relatives are dismayed by their choice not to baptize their child. Grandparents, aunts and uncles can do a lot to form a child’s faith. So here’s praying for them!
I can give you a quick answer and say you’re stupid.–Dr. C. Everett Koop
If I don’t stop banging my head against the wall, I’m going to take out a good corner of my house.
Some op-ed thing from some paper most likely housed in an igloo. H/T The Curt Jester:
Our baby is full of original sin. That’s righ…
It seems to me that this is hullabaloo over nothing at all. For this woman to declare that she is not raising her child Catholic is not at all surprising, since neither she, nor her husband, are Catholics.
Catholicism is not an ethnicity, it is a faith. If you disagree with the tenets of that faith, you are not Catholic. Simple, no?
So this unknown columnist from Winnipeg is not raising her child Catholic? In other news, Democrats are voting Democratic, cold air is chilly, muslims are blowing things up, and the more that things change, the more they stay the same.
This is very atypical of todays Christian’s who prefer to follow a “pick and choose theology”, over the teachings of the Church. Sadly this is all too prevalent not only in individuals, but, also within the clergy as well. When one hears an alleged Catholic priest in reference to the Host say, “I don’t know what all the fuss is about, it’s only a wafer”, then one begins to understand why confusion and misinformation abounds within the laity.
Pardon the semantic triviality, but the child cannot be a heretic UNLESS she is baptized.
Quite frankly you lot amaze me. How in a world of so much suffering, poverty and disease (and much of it down to the ‘catholic’ world, ie the west) can you say that the catholic church has saved you and this woman will be deserting her child etc etc? I am not an atheist, i am not a catholic, nor a baptist or anglican or any other christian denomination, nor am i muslim, islamic, sikh, buddist or even hindu. I am a normal sane human being who believes that if it can be proven then it must be true. If it cant be proven then it may be true. How anyone can live their lives based on ten things that some egit was told on a mountain several thousand years ago is beyond me. There isnt even any proof that this person existed! We live in a different world, the catholic church needs to move on, get into the modern sense of living. I wish there was some almighty power that had the power to save us all, but there probably isnt. So until we know surely we should all just try to make the best of a bad lot and help each other rather than sit here discussing whether this womans child will burn in hell for eternity? Wouldnt it be infinitely more helpful and indeed ‘christian’ to forgive this woman her ‘sins’ and maybe offer some support, or even ask her why she feels so strongly about this edict from the vatican. Man got to where he is now by asking ‘why’ not by burying his head in the sand and hoping that a few confessions would mean living in paradise forever. We have a bloody paradise right here, on earth, now. If all this religious bickering and hatred could be thrown out of the window and we actually got on together then there would be far less conflict. at least if there was a war people would have to tell the truth, like ‘i dont like the colour of your skin’ or ‘you have the oil i want’. These statements provoke a discussion and possibly a mutual understanding and eventually respect. simply saying ‘you will burn in an imaginary place because you believe in an different unproven entity conjoured up by people without the knowledge to explain things any better thousands of years ago and therefore i would quite like you all to bugger off and give up your religion, and believe in mine or i will come and kill you, oh and by the way i might want your oil as well’ doesnt help anyone! Particularly when the other person is just as vehmently opposed to your religion as you are to theirs. Is it just me who can see the total stupidity of any and all religion? As for the particularly nasty comment above regarding ‘muslims are still blowing things up’, what and the christians arent? try telling that to the Iraqi families killed in the last month. I have no problem with other people believing what they want, as indeed i do, just dont try and convert every bugger you come across and dont force your opinions, ideals and standards on others. we are all different and entitled to think different things, that is a basic human right. for the record, when you die you burn or rot. your energy turns in to heat and light (the former) or is converted by microscoping bacteria and worms, grubs etc (the latter). there is no soul (as far as we know) and again no heaven or hell, if you try to use the argument that it is not a real place, then please put some kind of scientific proof together to at least hypothesise where it might be. as the ‘good book’ says. Jesus Wept. he would if he could see what christianity has become, if indeed he existed at all.
Discuss.
I’m sorry, but none of us where raised as true absoulute Catholics. And when the truth hits us, we will invent falible doctrines to justify ourselves.
This woman, is only trying to justify herself.
I know it is painful to not have a child. Abraham was pretty old when he got one.
But breaking the rules is never the answer.
Much less deprive her child of Baptism. In a Catholic society, where the Gospel reigns the nations, that woman would be executed and her child taken from her.
To make an innocent child suffer the horrible thought of NEVER SEEING GOD IN HEAVEN.
QUOTE:
“just dont try and convert every bugger you come across and dont force your opinions, ideals and standards on others”
We would ask you the same, huh…
Besides, who came across whom anywaze?
Oh Guy your troll is showing
Guy: Just one question for your consideration, specifically about the soul:
Do you believe that we are entirely ‘determined’ by our physical makeup (both genetic and acquired) and the manner in which this interacts with the environment (in the larger sense, meaning essentially ‘the outside world’)?
(1) If so, then not only is there no room for free will (and hence trying to get us to change our minds is meaningless anyways), but even your beliefs about what is better is ‘pre-programmed’, and why should you believe ‘what you think to be true’ to actually be true?
(2) If not, then we have to try to explain what there is to the human being that allows for such things are free will, consciousness, etc…and positing ‘the soul’ is a way of doing this.
It is ONLY if there is a soul that the question of suffering, beliefs about good and evil, etc., are more than mere ‘programmed responses’; without the soul, we are merely ‘programmed response-machines’, not able to choose freely, know, etc., beyond that of any other sort of automata.
Therefore, I think the soul is important.
Note: This is NOT a proof of the existence of the soul; but once you start speaking about the importance of suffering, beliefs, choices, etc., then you are either (1) implicitly accepting something beyond mere determinism (and hence, in my view, beyond physicalism), or (2) have not thought through the question of free will.
But people should not merely reject this as ‘trollism’ (?); this is a deeply relevant and important question. Take care, and God bless…
She goes on to talk about contraception…
I’m shocked.
Heh. I e-mailed them yesterday and explained the actual meaning of “heretic” and the Church’s teaching on baptism. I don’t care what rubbish they spout as long as they don’t misrepresent Church teaching…
P
Jaye,
That was my exact thought. She hasn’t chosen to raise a heretic, she has chosen to raise a hethen, but then the difference would be lost on her.
It’s funny b/c on one hand she laments what the Church teaches but on the other hand hopes it closes down permanently. (though we know the gates of hell cannot prevail). If she hated the Church as much as she says she should want it to continue in error and come to its demise sooner.
Silly liberals, they don’t make no sense a’tall.
Why is it that every internet troll can’t master the simple concept of paragraph breaks?
I’ve always wondered at how some believe that with each new Pope comes the possibility that the Catholic Church will change all the teachings it’s held to for two thousand years…
It’s perfectly fine to disbelieve elements of Catholic doctrine, just not to do so and claim that it’s Catholic. There are a host of theologically piecemeal denominations out there for any interested.
Dear Guy,
I think you missed the humorous tone of most/all of the responses. There was – after you posted – one that was quite worrisome. Even if – as I devoutly hope – the death penalty for the dissenting lady in a “society where the Gospel reigns[!]” was meant in humor its poor taste was only exceeded by its poor theology! In the Gospels (St. Luke’s, I think), when Jesus’ apostles wanted to call fire down from heaven on some Jewish heretics (Samaritans), His response was a very sharp rebuke: “The Son of Man came not to destroy but to save!”)
Regarding the call of “fire from heaven” down on the Samaritans, it is interesting to observe that God, Who can answer our prayers “beyond what we can ask or imagine” despite the rebuke ANSWERS their prayer!
Fire (“not to destroy, but to save”) fell from Heaven on the Apostles at Pentecost, and they were soon sent packing to Samaria to spread the Saving Fire, to confirm the Samaritans in the Faith in which they had just been evangelized by a deacon!
Moral relativism means never having to defend your views.
Gee – I’m sorry I offended Guy with my statement “muslims are still blowing things up,” although he doesn’t refute the charge, but claims I am being nasty by excluding a corresponding statement “christians are still blowing things up”, and then goes on to reference the Iraq war, apparently drawing some correlation between the American military and Christianity. To appease Guy, I will amend my original statement to be more inclusive:
So this unknown columnist from Winnipeg is not raising her child Catholic? In other news, Democrats are voting Democratic, Republicans are voting Republican, cold air is chilly, hot air is warm, muslims are blowing things up, non-muslims are blowing things up, and the more that things change, the more they stay the same, and nothing stays the same more than the bizarre evangelism of agnostics.
Guy says:
“How anyone can live their lives based on ten things that some egit was told on a mountain several thousand years ago is beyond me.”
and then proceeds to say that we should get along and forgive others. Didn’s some Guy say those things several thousand years ago too?
Typical pick and choose!
Then again, the infants grieving Catholic grandparents could baptize her themselves — there is a formula: “I baptize you in the name of the…”, water, and the sign of the cross on the forehead of the infant traced with water…feel free to enlighten me if this is not exact.
Guy amuses me. From one (former) atheist to another, niceness and getting along are pointless unless they make my individual existance more pleasant. More to the point, we should only be interested in a type of quid pro quo that increases our pleasure.
After all, the TRUTH is that the entire human race is going down. Even if some catastrophic event doesn’t destroy us, our planet will be uninhabitable long before our sun burns the earth to cinders, and there is no feasible way to go to another inhabitable planet (even if we were lucky enough to spot one that MIGHT be habitable when humans reached it after 300 years of travel). All art, all tradition, all history – everything will be lost. What I do today doesn’t matter in 400 years, let alone in 200,000 years. I’m no more important than a microbe – and perhaps less so, if it can survive in a cold vacuum.
Guy is merely wasting his very limited time by posting such comments to the clearly fervent theists. 🙂
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