Clap Trap

I hope you hurry up with this. :)

We sang a nice recessional hymn at Mass yesterday (Lift High the Cross), and it had a descant for the refrain, and there was a high note at the end, and...people clapped. (First time ever, hopefully last!)

Does the fact that Father had already exited the church by this point mitigate the inappropriateness of the clapping? :)

When the priest says "The Mass is ended go in peace" I would think it is okay.

While you are at it, can you invent an ad-lib-inator?

It could be like one of those electric fences for dogs. Every time a priest strays off the reservation ... ZAP!

How about the layificator? Turns gaggles of Extraordinary ministers back into ordinary lay people?

While your inventing things, how about a ray that will make the fillings fall out of the teeth of people who chew the Eucharist. Every Sunday I see this and want to shout, "Hey stupid, it's Jesus and not JuicyFruit. Show some respect!"

Sorry, everyone has their pet peeve.

But, ummm... there's nothing wrong or disrespectful about chewing the Eucharist. His Flesh is real food.

And, Red Cardigan, you dredged up a bad memory from yesterday. I was so pleased to see that "Lift High the Cross," perhaps my most favorite hymn, was our processional yesterday, especially at the rock-band-wanna-be Mass I had no choice but to attend. Then it actually started. I've never heard it performed with drums and electric guitar before, and I hope I never do again. :-)

Does the pope know that he gets to appoint all the bishops of the world?

Not that I want to encourage rhythm-challenged white people to clap more, but I think there's a distinction to be made between clapping and applause.

Applause is what the pope was talking about. Clapping is the participation of the body in the song being sung. It is a "singing with the hands", if you will.

Again, perhaps one could argue that it has no place in a Western-European-esque liturgy, but it's a totally different animal than applause. (And, just to shake things up, I wonder if native American liturgies might not have room for a development of clapping - not applause - since our musical culture is significantly Afro-influenced. Just a thought.)

Applause is what the pope was talking about. Clapping is the participation of the body in the song being sung. It is a "singing with the hands", if you will.

There is no clapping in the Roman rite. Period.

Well, there we a few people in my parish who were applauding after the end of every mass. I just didnt get it. We are there to worship not to see how good we can do it. Then it stopped. I hope the pastor had said something. But on the other hand, the pastor thanks ( after the final blessing) all thouse who helped with the liturgy. And when there is a new server ther is usually applause. I dont get that either.

"Applause is what the pope was talking about. Clapping is the participation of the body in the song being sung. It is a "singing with the hands", if you will."

Clapping is what you do at a circus. Or a rock concert. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Roman Rite, as Rich said, has no allowance for clapping.

What if the applause is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit? Applause can mean more than "Wow, that was entertaining!". Applause is often a sign of gratitude. Is it an insult to God to be grateful? At our church, we greet guests with applause before the beginning of mass as a sign of welcoming. We greet the newly baptized, newly confirmed, and newly married with applause. I find no problem with occasionally saying "Amen" with our hands. Mass is a celebration! Praise God in his holy santuary!

I like the ad-lib-inator idea. This morning we got an ad libbed "is that clear" in the midst of the Gospel.

So does God need applause to know that we are grateful? Or is it the vain, self aggrandizing cantor who just belted out some insipid pop song created by a homosexual who needs applause? Or is it the vain, approval seeking parishioners that want everyone to know how "filled with the Spirit" they are? Of course we have recently (re)discovered that the cantor and the parishioners actually are gods so maybe clapping makes sense....

The thing about applause at Mass is that it is not even an act of worship. It is always a response to a human achievement whether it is for singing or for some achievement of the parish etc.

I also think it is quite legalistic to thing that once the priest leaves that anything goes. How about people that are trying to pray?

I am with Jon W. Even though I am a "rhythm challenged white person", I believe that clapped to some of the music is not the same as applause, but is "singing with your hands". Can't we stop being ethnocentric Europeans for 50 minutes every Sunday and appreciate that the Holy Spirit calls some of us to praise silently, and others on glad tamborine? Why is your preference for folded hands preferable to another person's preference to participate body and soul?
When the choir sings "Soon and Very Soon" I may decide to clap along myself. I promise I won't during th Ave Marie or Panis Angelicus.

I like the rock concert analogy. So when we take this quote:

"What if the applause is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit?" Let's apply:

What if holding up lighters is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit?

What if climbing on your boyfriend's shoulders is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit?

What if flashing your breasts is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit?

What if starting a mosh pit is in response to achievement of the holy Spirit?

As we can see, this reduces the Third Person of the Trinity to a subjectivist rubber-stamp for the monkeys-in-the-sanctuary argument.

Why is your preference for folded hands preferable to another person's preference to participate body and soul?

It isn't a question of preference but what is envisioned and called for by the rite. But since you more or less gave yourself away with the sneer against "ethnocentric Europeans," I'm thinking liturgical fidelity isn't one of your priorities.

You would go rich selling those in Albany!!I know lots of people who would love one!

Not trying to be a smart aleck here, as I agree that clapping during the liturgy is generally inappropriate (although I can see the occasional exceptions, such as a baptism, reception of first communion, and perhaps a son or daughter returning home from the military safely). But I should point out that apparently the Pope's words don't apply to the Pope himself, since he clapped at both his arrival and departing Mass in the United States. Granted, these weren't typical Masses, but still I'm curious as to what the differences are, and why it was appropriate there.

To date, I have not seen flickering lighters, naked breasts, piggy-back rides or body slamming at my church. I would speculate that the holy Spirit probably does not stimulate that type of behavior.

Some people hug, others hold hands when they're not supposed to, I've even seen people flash the two fingered peace sign!!! I understand a need for decorum, but staunch legalism rarely builds community.

I guess most people agree that the mass is all about celebrating our own wonderfulness so clapping, hugging, kissing, laughing, dancing - heck eating donuts all ought to be part of the "liturgy" - and we know the Holy Spirit is inspiring all this because we want it! Pay no attention to the tortured man on the Cross folks - lets sing "All God's Chilllin' Got Shoes"!

Anyway - apart from the cynicism - it is sad that we are so lonely and so bereft of real human society that we need to act like idiots at Mass. Singing folk songs and dancing and clapping etc are all things we used to do every day of the week - just not at Mass. If you like e.g. "gospel" music please sing it - loudly and bravely - at the office or at lunch or while other people are trying to watch porn on TV.

Folks, what converts people - love, or anger? First off, this is a very valid and appropriate topic - the appropriateness of different styles of music and behavior during divine worship. However, I'd hesitate to say that a non-Christian looking at this page, with all its anger and vitriol, would be more inspired to come to Jesus, our one and true Savior.

What is the difference between the anger and vitriol shown in the explosive comments on this article, and Joe Feuerherd's anger and vitriol at the Bishops for sticking up responsible Catholic citizenship? (cf. Whispers in the Loggia 9/15). The point: there is excessive and unproductive anger on all sides in the Church, orthodox/heterodox, liberal/conservative, or whatever other highly charged labels we might try to affix to one another.

LOVE converts people. Let's remember that.

I heard a rule similar to what StanleyS suggests - that it's ok to clap for the Sacraments (When two people marry, when a priest is ordained, etc.) because we're applauding God's work through His Sacraments.

But the clapping after the recessional hymn really makes my head want to explode. I realize people do it because they don't know any better, it's not that they're trying to be offensive. But why don't they know any better - what are the bishops doing? I think we need mandatory CCD education for adults (or maybe just more priests who use their homilies to teach rather than as filler between the readings and the Eucharist) - only good, faithful education, not like the kind my generation received growing up.

"David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals." 2 Samuel 6:5.

The Old Testament is full of dancing, tambourines and merriment as part of worship. Granted that there must be an infused virtue of phronesis guiding liturgical practice. But in what does that consist?

Note that I'm not defending "modern" liturgical music. A lot of it is insipid and quasi-Pelagian (or maybe not even quasi-). But let us not roundly condemn Hebrews and black people for not being Germanic. There have been a lot of heretics in the vein of Marcionites, Gnostics and Docetists who have tried to "de-Hebrewify" various aspects of the Christian religion. In many cases this is likely due to cultural chauvinism. I tend to regard cultural chauvinism as mostly innocuous, but it can lead to serious trouble.

I get the Germanic bit. I'm Germanic, too. I don't like to be touched. I have a wide Lebensraum ("personal space"). I generally hate extraneous noise and dislike outbursts. So I get it. But there's an element of "worship white and get serious" going on here that makes me distinctly uncomfortable. Did the Hebrews worship God improperly?

Yes, there's the question of a punctilious observation of the pro forma text of the Roman Rite. Yet did God not also say:

"Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

It's a prudential matter. While I'm no "multiculturalist" (perish the thought), I also try not to mistake my personal preferences for genuine prudence.

Sure - the Old Testament is filled with singing and dancing - cf. Exodus 32:18:"...But Moses answered, "It does not sound like cries of victory, nor does it sound like cries of defeat; the sounds that I hear are cries of revelry."
As he drew near the camp, he saw the calf and the dancing. "

To date, I have not seen flickering lighters, naked breasts, piggy-back rides or body slamming at my church. I would speculate that the holy Spirit probably does not stimulate that type of behavior.

No you haven't because it is a reductio ad absurdum argument. Basically it demonstrates the paucity of invoking the Holy Spirit to justify whatever. It isn't fair arguing. Neither is:

the anger and vitriol shown in the explosive comments on this article

which is begging the question and bad faith.

As a good catechetics teacher once told me, "Never defend, never attack; ALWAYS clarify." The point of my previous post is that nit-picking comments convert no one and don't serve to advance a civil discussion. Anger and division don't convert people. Love does. We've got to let that love show through in everything we do.

Setting aside the ridiculous arguments about lighters, donuts and whatever, let me share a story about the last time that I responded with applause during mass. The date was August 24th of this year, the 21st Sunday of Ordinary Time. After reading the gospel, Mt 16:13-20, the presiding priest shared the significance of this passage to his conversion from an Episcopal priest to a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. Everyone interrupted him with applause at the announcement of his conversion. It did not detract from the message, after the applause, he shared his thoughts about the readings. I'm sure most were applauding his action; some were probably applauding the good work brought about by his cooperation with the holy Spirit. The priest did not share his conversion for his glory, but for our gain.

Appropriate or not?

Ok, I'll clarify--you are ascribing anger and nit-picking where none exists. If you don't have a cogent response to other's points, fine. But please stop impugning motives.

"I'm sure most were applauding his action; some were probably applauding the good work brought about by his cooperation with the holy Spirit. The priest did not share his conversion for his glory, but for our gain.

Appropriate or not?"

Not. And here's my reasoning.

The action of the Mass is the re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. We are in a very real sense present at the foot of the Cross at Calvary. Now which people do you suppose were clapping and applauding - or you can you use the terms jeering and cheering, if you want - during the crucifixion?

I don't think that anyone who's commenting here questions the intent of those who clap during the songs or applaud at certain times. At issue here is the appropriateness of the action. IMHO, the applause isn't really a movement of the Holy Spirit, but a response to a stimulus. A better response to the priest's homily would have been a personal word of gratitude to him after Mass.

Good grief - what on earth makes people think that a priest needs applause during a homily as if he were Oprah or Hannah Montana. He neither wants nor needs the people's applause - he wants the people to hear his preaching.

David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals." 2 Samuel 6:5.

This happened while they were in procession bring the Ark to Jerusalem, not inside the tent where David offered sacrifice - no mention is made of dancing etc.

The Old Testament is full of dancing, tambourines and merriment as part of worship.

Where?

Sharon,

For one the Old Testament has zero of this activity in regards to Temple Liturgy, what you referenced was all part of devotional activity apart from the Temple liturgy which is just fine. Outside of Mass people can prudentially do what they please. Clapping, dancing, etc is not part of the Latin Rite.

Though King David also danced naked, will you put this forth as a norm.

Larry,

Certainly, the action of the Liturgy of the Eucharist is the re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. I agree applause is inappropriate during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word, while anticipating this action, celebrates all aspects of God and his good works, from creation to redemption. It is here that I have trouble with the absolute admonishment against applause. I might see it differently if I thought that priests were actively seeking praise. If we are confined by decorum demanded by the Liturgy of the Eucharist during the Liturgy of the Word, I would think that homilies should never invoke smiles or laughter either.

If one but thinks that liturgy, 'the work of the people', seeks to raise one's mind and heart to God in adoration and supplication, then the exhortation of the pope is readily seen as a reminder of what we are involved in. I would just ask his Holiness to make due allowance for the one, and only one, instance of applause I have witnessed in a mass. Actually it was a funeral mass and the young man delivering the eulogy for his grandfather was visibly stuggling with his emotions, each remembered occasion or event appeared to strike home very hard but only further firmed his resolve to do a good job for his grandad. He held back his tears until he was finished. And then the applause echoed around the church. I too joined in.

"If we are confined by decorum demanded by the Liturgy of the Eucharist during the Liturgy of the Word, I would think that homilies should never invoke smiles or laughter either."

You'd get no argument from me. Smiles are one thing, but laughter...if the homilist spent more time teaching instead of telling jokes or trying to be entertaining, I think the sorry state of catechesis in the Church today would be in a better place. I can't say for certain this side of heaven, but I would be surprised if St John Vianney ever cracked a joke during one of his homilies, or if St Augustine started a sermon with "A Catholic, a Jew and a pagan entered a bath..." We need to be reminded that sin is sin, and it's during the homily when the priest ought to be exhorting us to repent, focusing on the Scripture that was read that day. Teaching us on how to be authentic Christians. Laughter during the homily, IMHO, can connote that what's being said really isn't all that serious, or doesn't need to be taken to heart.

The Catechism tells us that the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist "form one single act of worship." (para 1346) The Mass is a single act - it is meant to be solemn, not somber. Yes, it's joyous, but not in a "hey hey the gang's all here" kind of way. Salvation is serious business, not frivolous. Conversion is serious, not trivial. There is a time and a place for applause, laughter, the mosh pit of Peace, etc - just not during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

As Liam Neeson's character told Bruce Wayne in 'Batman Begins' - "you must be more aware of your surroundings" (something close to that). We're in the presence of the King of Kings - surrounded by myriads of angels - mystically united with the host of Heaven. We ought to be concerned with where we are and who we're with, worshipping God instead of applauding man.

How long, O Lord, for the people of Rochester diocese?